In this episode, host Jason Jacobs welcome Angelo Serse and Erik Kallio from Pro Stride Skating, a specialized skating school focused on developing faster, more powerful, and efficient skating for hockey. They discuss their personal journeys in hockey, the foundation of Pro Stride, and the importance of proper skating mechanics. The conversation covers the balance between on-ice training and off-ice workouts, the use of technology and video analysis, and the dedicated, long-term effort required to become a great skater. They emphasize the need for a holistic approach to player development, integrating insights from different coaches, and the essential role of skating in a player's overall hockey performance. The episode concludes with advice for parents and players on how to choose the right training programs and the importance of consistent, dedicated practice.
In this episode, Angelo Serse and Erik Kallio from Pro Stride Skating join the show to discuss the importance of skating in hockey player development. The conversation begins with a humorous anecdote about how the host met Erik, leading into a discussion about Angelo and Erik's backgrounds in hockey. They dive into the mechanics of skating, their philosophy on player development, and the role of technology in training. They also address common misconceptions parents have about hockey skating training and emphasize the importance of long-term dedication to see meaningful improvements. Finally, they highlight the services offered by Pro Stride and share insights on effective training routines.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:15 The Story Behind Prost Stride
02:27 Angelo's Journey in Hockey
04:56 Erik's Path to Coaching
07:34 Founding Pro Stride
13:13 The Importance of Skating in Hockey
30:12 The Science Behind Skating Techniques
30:52 Comparing Different Skating Styles
33:32 Assessing and Improving Skating Skills
36:02 The Role of Strength and Coordination in Skating
39:27 Balancing Training and Avoiding Burnout
46:59 The Impact of Technology on Skating Training
54:13 Final Thoughts and Advice for Aspiring Skaters
[Jason Jacobs]
Welcome to Puck Academy, a show about how hockey players grow on and off the ice. I'm Jason Jacobs, the host. And each week I talk with players, coaches, and experts shaping the future of player development.
Today's guests are Erik Kallio and Angelo Serse from Prostride Skating. Prostride instructors believe that making players faster, quicker, more efficient, and explosive skaters will make them better hockey players. In this episode, we talk about both Erik and Angelo's backgrounds in the sport growing up as players.
Their transition to coaching and coaching around skating, specifically. And skating in general, when it's too young to start, how to think about it, what it takes to get better, how much of it is on ice versus off ice versus mental versus conditioning, and anything else that you might want to know. It's a great discussion.
And I hope you enjoy it. Okay, Angelo Serse and Erik Kallio, welcome to the show, guys. Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us. Thanks for coming. So funny story for listeners.
I was watching a camp that my son was skating at this summer in Foxborough. And there was a guy next to me putting his skates on and we started chatting and that was Eric. And I told him about what I'm up to.
And he agreed to come on the show. And of course, Angelo, you and I work together. So you're joining.
And the show is sorting through player development. And there's a lot of nuances and knots, as you guys know. And I haven't had anyone on that's skating specific yet.
And obviously skating is an important component of hockey. And I also have a lot of questions about it as a dad. So I'm really grateful that you two are making the time to come on and talk about what you do since, you know, teaching hockey players.
Skating is a is what you guys do probably, you know, as good or better than anybody. So, so yeah, thanks again for making the time and looking forward to learning more about Prostride.
[Erik Kallio]
Absolutely.
[Jason Jacobs]
Well, what's Pro Stride for starters?
[Erik Kallio]
We're at the skating school for hockey players and we have a really specific niche where we're focused on skating development. So we're not a general skills. We're not a one-stop shop.
We're going to teach you how to skate, stick handle, shoot. You know, that's not what we do. You know, we focus on making players faster, more powerful, more efficient skaters on the ice.
But then also taking that, those mechanics and being able to apply it to a game because that's, that's the step that, you know, coming up that we noticed a lot of players are missing. They can become great skaters and then don't know how to apply it or can't apply it. Don't understand how to put it in a game.
[Jason Jacobs]
I was going to ask how Prostride came to be. But even before that, it'd be great to hear from each of you just your path into the game. Because it looks like both of you played the game at a high level before focusing on coaching and focusing on skating.
So, yeah, like, you know, path to the game and then we can talk about path to focusing on skating. But first things first.
[Angelo Serse]
I mean, for me, it was kind of my uncle who got us into hockey. My father is from Italy. Didn't speak English until second grade.
So, my uncle got me in. He always had a deal. If I made it to the NHL as a player, I think, because we talked about this, I would own a car.
Unfortunately, I never bought a car, but that's okay. I made it as a coach.
[Jason Jacobs]
Just make it to the NHL as a coach. Do you still own the car?
[Angelo Serse]
No, no. I think in the contract, it was as a player. So, I started in Long Beach in Long Island.
And from there, just get play in the game. And my father and I, we actually talked about this the other day. I don't think I really played the game for any other reason than for the love of it.
Until probably I reached 16, 17 years old when then that's when I had coaches start recruiting me, right, for juniors and whatnot. And even I remember we got to juniors and my dad was like, no, he's going to college. And then all the parents were like, no, no, he's going to play juniors.
So, eventually get to college. This is what they do in hockey. We didn't know that.
And so I ended up playing junior hockey, went, played college at Stony Brook, which went there for the education and some fun. The hockey was, it was good, but definitely it was better for the education. But then even after Stony Brook, I never thought I would play professionally, but I ended up getting invite to a camp and played two years in the minors, I guess, and kicked around.
That was kind of my story. But it was, it was a great learning experience. It was great with all the friends you meet and man make and still close with them forever.
Erik'll joke around, we'll go anywhere in the world. Of course you know someone here. Well, we played together here or here.
It's like, yeah, you just, you meet great friends for a lifetime. So it's a, it's a great sport. I was probably better at baseball than hockey, but there was nothing to compare to how fun hockey is.
[Jason Jacobs]
Yeah, we've got to do what you love.
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, exactly.
[Jason Jacobs]
And what about you, Eric, what was your path into the game? I saw you're a NESCAC guy like me.
[Erik Kallio]
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, minds, you know, again, like, Angela, it's not like I have deep roots in the, you know, from years of family playing. My parents are both from the West Coast.
Neither of them know how to skate at all. And we moved out to the Boston area when I was about four and they're like, I guess he lived in Boston. He might as well learn how to skate.
So I learned how to skate on unsharpened figure skates in Tont, Massachusetts for a year. And then coaches were like, you know, he does pretty good job. Has he ever thought about hockey?
My parents had no idea about hockey, but they put me in learn to play and then mites. And I was a kid that the coach had to come up and say, you know, you're supposed to untape their stick before you just put a fresh layer of tape on. I mean, I had like 20 rolls of tape on my stick blade.
[Jason Jacobs]
Did you at least take the skate guards off before you step on the ice?
[Erik Kallio]
I mean, I don't know if it mattered if I didn't have sharpened skates, but you know, probably, you know, I mean, hopefully they probably didn't even know about skate guards to be honest with you. You know, so I, you know, I just, you know, it's kind of one of those things played town hockey. And then people were like, oh, you should go play whatever the next level.
My parents were like, all right, where do we go try out? I brought me to try out just kind of, you know, playing triple A in the Boston area, playing through high school. And then after high school, I didn't really thought about college hockey until my senior year.
And then some junior teams came and said, you know, to be interested in coming to try and out. So did that and ended up playing juniors, getting recruited by, you know, a bunch of schools, but decided Hamilton College and the NezCAC was a great fit for me after a year of juniors. You know, there's so many things that go on in that timeframe of, should you play another year and all that.
And I had a great opportunity. I loved Hamilton. So I went and played four years at Hamilton College and then have the opportunity to, you know, had some tryout offers, had some agents talk to me, but decided, you know, I kind of wanted to get into coaching as opposed to the putzing around in the minors for a year or two.
I mean, at that point, you can kind of see the writing on the wall. And, you know, the NHL was not writing on the wall for me. But I really enjoyed, you know, during my college times working at hockey camps, helping players get better, you know, younger players get better and really loved that and had the opportunity to go work for some camps and organizations when I graduated college and just never got a quote unquote big boy job, I guess, you know, just when I'm right from college into coaching players and have made it a career now.
[Jason Jacobs]
It'd be interesting to hear from each of you just the path to focusing on skating and also just how you came together and how pro-stripe got off the ground. And then of course we can get into all the good stuff, which is, you know, skating and why it matters and what to work on it. But I figured a little history would be helpful for listeners too, just for context.
[Angelo Serse]
I know for me, it was when I was at the festival for the US team, I had a coach tell me, like, you're really good, but you need to work on your skating. Like, that's what's really holding you back. And I was like, okay, so what do I do?
And he was like, go on a slide board. And so I went on a slide board. I got stronger.
But whatever you do on the ice, it often translates off the ice. So if you skate very upright and you go do sled pushes, which are great, you're going to do a sled push, very upright. So you have to work on the technique of it.
So I think for me, just not knowing much about hockey or what makes you better. I never had that growing up in this area, New Jersey at the time. It was not a hotbed.
We had some unbelievable kids that came out of this area that were my birth year or even younger and some that were older who kind of paved the way. But we didn't have the information that we do now. And so for me, it is so rewarding for me to teach a player.
And have him get that contract in the NHL or D1 commit. That's more rewarding for me to see than me going to play an NHL. It's just so cool to see.
Eric and I have worked with guys since they were five, six years old. And now some of them are at the D1 level, at the college level, playing in the minors or any NHL. And every time they talk to a reporter, it's like your speed.
It's your speed. That's why you're so effective. And it's just so rewarding to see that.
And so that's what kind of got me involved. Like, okay, I want to provide you what I did not have. So, and it's great to see.
[Erik Kallio]
Yeah, I would say, you know, for me, growing up, I did a lot of, you know, various different kind of skating camps and, you know, clinics and coaches that taught skating. And I didn't have the best hands. I did not have the best shots.
You know, those were not, I mean, Angela will tell you now, like, I don't even know. I mean, hands are the first to go, but they're bad now. But, you know, I made it because of, you know, number one, probably by speed.
And then obviously knowledge of the game, but it wasn't stick handling and shooting. So I just know how important it was for me, improving by skating and just all the experience I had in terms of working with coaches, being taught by coaches, you know, after my playing days, you know, working with different coaches and learning from them. And how important it is and how that can change a player's game, you know, because you can have an amazing shot, which a lot of players do, which is a great skill.
But if you're not a great skater, it's hard to really utilize that. So, for me, just, you know, the best way to help myself was my skating ability. So being able to pass that on to other players and coach them.
And Angela and I got connected, just kind of working at, you know, clinics after we were finished playing and we met each other and just, you know, became great friends and started traveling around, working for different hockey companies. And, you know, that's how we met each other. But then back in, you know, 2021 decided, you know, why don't we start pro-stride skating and then do this together.
And, you know, we knew some other coaches, some of our other lead instructors who are amazing skating coaches in their own right and, you know, form this team that make up pro-stride skating. And we feel we have the best group of, you know, coaches, you know, anywhere in the country, anywhere in the world.
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, I think just to piggyback off of that too, like Eric and I, we've, I've been in the hockey world for 36 years now. And all the amount of coaches that we've had come through, they've taught us good things and bad things. And we've taken all of that.
And we, we knew that there was just a program that was kind of missing that could evolve and translate into the game of hockey. Eric and I are not speed skaters. We're not figure skaters.
We're hockey players at the end of the day. And we know that you need to show players how to translate that into a game. You could be the fastest guy in the ice, but if you're not smart and don't know how to apply that in that game situation, you've probably not in position.
So it's like, okay, great. You're running around like your head's chopped off, but, and your fastest one out there, but then why is the puck always behind you? Why are you always out of the zone?
You're cheating the game a little bit. So it's, we pretty much took everything that we have had and we continue to do so. Eric and I are now just thankfully surrounded by some of the greatest coaches in hockey.
And we continue to evolve and develop and learn and become even better coaches every single day.
[Jason Jacobs]
Skating is, I mean, it's a confusing one as a, as a parent because it, I mean, it's almost like a black art. It's like, it's like, it's like, so and so needs to work on their skating. Like what should they do?
Like, well, they should get stronger or go on a slide board. Do edge work. Yeah.
[Angelo Serse]
Or just go on a slide board. Yeah.
[Jason Jacobs]
And then it's like, well, well, you know, why don't they get lessons or clinics or whatever. And it's like, well, what do you look for? And it's like, honestly, I think, and you guys know better than me, but I bet that most parents just look at like, well, what kids do they work with or what pros do they work with or whatever.
And it's all just about the people because they have no idea how to assess, like, like, what's good and what's bad and how to know and how to tell or what they should be working on or, you know, what's a gimmick? What's detrimental? So, I mean, what, what advice do you have for players and parents that want to escape better on where to start, how to think about it.
You know, just, you know, when, when, yeah, any and all of that.
[Erik Kallio]
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot there, but I would say, you know, number one, you know, and we get, I get, you know, people that call me and be like, you know, we saw you or whatever post or sure or whatever it might be. Are you guys good at what you do?
And it's like, I don't know if I'm the right person to ask that because I'm, you know, I'm going to give you a buy. Of course, we think that our coaches, what we do, we're the best. And, you know, we're trying, we're always trying to be better, but go talk to people that have worked with us.
You know, I think that is a testament to what we do, you know, and I would say that was pretty much any program. They're like, what do you think about this? I'm like, I've never done program X.
I've never taken it as a player. So don't, you know, yeah, I've seen from it. Don't ask me, you know, go ask someone that asked around.
Did anyone ever done program X before? And, you know, see what people think. Was it, was their value in it?
Were they teaching your players? Were they connecting with your players? So I think that, what you say is, how do you know what's good and what's bad?
That is truly the hardest part, especially with social media nowadays. I mean, you go on social media. There is some great information out there.
There is some awful information out there that's just plain wrong. And, and how do you decipher between the good and the bad? If you're not a true, you know, hockey expert, you played the game, like that's not right.
Like that, you know, how do parents know? How do players know? You know, because we have players and parents come up to us all the time like, Hey, we saw this.
Isn't this amazing? I'm like, no. And then you explain to them what, like, what is incorrect and why, what would be correct?
Like, that makes so much sense. I'm like, but how do you decipher that if you're just someone sitting at home? So truly the hardest part is deciphering.
What is a value for players and what's good and it's going to teach players great skills and what isn't? You know, my opinion, it's talking to people, talking to parents and friends that have done certain programs and, and try and get feedback that way.
[Angelo Serse]
I would kindly disagree with that. Just because they're a little drama.
[Jason Jacobs]
I like it.
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, they're just some parents who always think they know best. And they're just so hooked on this one person. And this is the person we need to go to.
This is going to fix everything now. Like a lot of times parents and, and no offense to them. Parents with a lot of money feel like they could just buy, buy it, buy the skill.
And it's just like, all right, we're just going to do everything. And we're going to go to this and we're going to go to this. And then it's almost too much.
You're going to find what works for you. And, and they're the why you're asking this question and why it's such a great question is because there is no answer. It's hard.
I'm in the, I'm in the soccer world right now with my eight year old daughter. And we're arguing about what she should be doing soccer wise. And my wife's like, you're holding her back.
And I'm like, no, you're going to burn her out. And it's just like, it's such a hard.
[Jason Jacobs]
If your daughter's anything like mine, your daughter's going to win the argument no matter what it's about.
[Angelo Serse]
Yes, exactly. And so I, I just often, I don't think there's an answer. Right.
And it's, and at the end of the day, I think it's okay. Because parents have to stop having their kids play a sport to make it professional. I think Eric hit the nail on the head.
I did as well. Why are they, I think the bigger question we have to ask people is why are we having our kids play sports? It's so they get off the iPad.
It's so they get out of the house and they go play and they have fun and they enjoy it. I don't care how bad my son is at hockey. After, after the skate.
Hey, buddy. Do you have a good time? Yeah.
I had three goals. No, you didn't. But it's, oh, yeah, she did.
Yeah.
[Jason Jacobs]
I've never tried this comeback on anybody, but I'm going to try it right now for the first time ever. The inaugural time that I'm going to throw it out, which is, if, because everyone says like, do it for fun. Do it for fun.
Do it for fun. Why do we send our kids to school?
[Erik Kallio]
I'll say that. I get like, you know, we do it for fun. I think, and this is what.
In terms of looking back on it. What, what did I get out of it? Because we're like a hockey school.
You know what I mean? Like what we work on isn't the most fun thing because, you know, the first thing that kids a lot of times, the first time they come out work with us for is when are we going to scrimmage? It's like, that's a good joke.
Your parents didn't pay us to, you know, to come out and have you put you through a scrimmage. Um, so it's like, well, they're coming to us. Why do we go to school?
And I think part of it and what it taught for me is life. How to work hard, you know, coming out there. What do you enjoy?
All right. You enjoy playing hockey. All right.
Well, that's a skill that you have to work on. You know, and it's not just skating, but all the different skills. The game is the fun part.
That's the payoff. That's the, you know, the prize at the end of the road, whatever it is. But to become a great occupier, you have to put in a lot of hard work, a lot of hours.
And that teaches you life skills later on. What do you want to be? You want to be a banker?
You know, just show up and be a great banker. You've got to put an hour, I mean, I'm no banker, but you've got to put in hours and hours and hours and hard, long hours to master certain things and to make the, you know, so it's the same thing with skating. It's teaching these players, you know, something that they love, which is hockey and how to dedicate themselves to become great at it, you know, and the better they dedicate themselves to becoming great at individual skills.
All the players we work with, they become better skaters. They have more fun playing. Why do you have more fun playing when you're a better skater?
Because you get the puck more, you know, you have it more. You have more chances of score. You know, you're on the ice more.
So, you know, you're working on a skill that's going to help you have more fun, but it takes those long hours. So I think, you know, I think I lost my way on the question there.
[Angelo Serse]
The reason why we go to school is structure. You have structure. It could be a touchy, touchy subject.
These academies are not for everyone. Right? They're not.
I would not have done well. If you're telling me I go sit in a hockey rink and I go on my computer and do online schooling and I'm not being looked at. I would have failed.
I would have had to go back to fifth grade, probably. That just wouldn't have worked for me. I needed the structure.
It's even why I went to a prep school. Not just for the structure. The hockey was a little better, but it was more about discipline as well.
And then even if you kind of take that classroom atmosphere and you apply it to school, then you get to the game of hockey. Right? Okay.
So the game, the fun part is the game. Right? But we're going to have classes in between.
You're going to go to your strength coach. You're going to go to your skills coach. You're going to go to your skating coach so that when you become older, those become better.
Right? And then that's why you got to go to school to learn. I don't know if for me, the online schooling, it works for people.
It does. Just for me, they would not have. That's for sure.
[Jason Jacobs]
Bringing it back around to the, to the skating. I mean, it strikes me that you can, you can watch someone skate and then you can pick out, Oh, we can tune this. We can do that.
Change this change that. But there's also just fundamental things that, uh, that you could be doing to kind of get ahead of it. For example, you could, and I don't even know what they are, but I'll just give you some hypothetical.
It might be flexibility. It might be, um, speed or agility. Or, or, you know, building up certain muscles or, or, or getting used to certain motions, anti coordination, nutrition, sleep, like, like those, those things you could do that can kind of set the table free to be better out of the gates before you get into like the prescriptive tuning of, of fixes and fix that.
So is it, is it one size fits all in terms of no matter where you come in, like, here's the general process. And here's what we like to work on or, um, or is it more like me people where they are and, and, and personalize. Um, and I get that some of that might also be the logistical constraint of like, well, if we're doing a group of 15, right, then, then it can't be a hundred percent personalized, even if it should be.
But I'm just curious how you guys think about it.
[Erik Kallio]
I would say one there, there's never a one size fit all. I don't think for anything. For anything, but, you know, and what you said too about, you know, off ice and physical.
I think the number one thing, and people say it all the time. And maybe it's cliché, but it's being athlete, you know, like you've got to be an athlete, you know, mobility, insanely important to be a great skater, to be a great hockey player. You know, knowledge of, you know, just how to play a game, that, whatever, it all translates.
So being an athlete helps you become a great skater, you know, and that doesn't mean to be like, well, until you're a great athlete, there's no point in focusing on mechanics of skate. You know, that's also part of becoming a great athlete and being able to, you know, being able to learn and adapt and make your body do different things that aren't always the normal walking, running motion or things like that. It's becoming an athlete, you know, and that's like the number one thing for players.
And players that are great athletes tend to become great players because they have that athletic ability, but it's, you can't just do one thing to become a great athlete. Yeah.
[Angelo Serse]
And I think you do often people get confused with like the Patty Keynes and the summative players that the few players who have only played hockey and never ever gotten off the ice. It's definitely important to, I mean, there's so many studies, right, that show you should be taking two to three months off for your sport. Go play another sport.
And yes, go to the gym, go work out and have fun with that at the younger age. It's like when I was done playing, I didn't want to see the inside of a gym for a couple of years. So it's working.
I get back inside that gym myself. Well, I can't find it.
[Jason Jacobs]
When it comes to the actual mechanics of skating, are, is there, is it more of a long tail where different people have different problems and, and no two skaters are the same or, or is it more like, um, you know, these two or three things are like the highest leverage things. And if 80%, you know, for 80% of the skaters, if they just did these two or three things better, their, their skating would, you know, get, get twice as good.
[Angelo Serse]
So I, I think it definitely depends on what age you're talking about, right? If, if it's a might squirt, pee, we focus on the fundamentals where it's your, your forward stride, your crossover, your forward, backward sea cut, your four pushes and hockey, uh, and, and your edge work. All right.
Uh, when it starts getting to the high school level, uh, when they start growing, that start changing a little bit as well, but you still want to stay with the fundamentals, but now you're going to start implementing it a little bit more into the game situations. And maybe you're concerned about the angling, the surfing, the tight turns, uh, at the pro level, college level, um, that's when you, it's, it's harder during the season to break down the fundamental pushes. Uh, but during the season, what we usually do is we'll focus on the game situations.
Um, and then during the summer, that's when we can start implementing the, uh, the fundamental pushes. So it depends on what stage in your career or what age you are, what you want to focus on, but no matter what we get to, every time we Eric or I work with an NHL guy, they always say, where were you 15 years ago? Where were you when I was 10 years old?
Like I've just had one guy recently tell me he goes, I've been skating wrong my entire career. And he goes, I think I've been doing pretty well. I go, yeah, you've had a very good career.
Uh, but it's not that he was skating wrong. It's that now he's skating a little bit better with more confidence. And it was just a quick little tweak.
And unfortunately, there are people who will try to take the biomechanics of how the body should work and work to the best of its ability. And they'll just be like, no, this is the new way. That's the old way.
And just try and reinvent the wheel where a lot of these, I, I don't call them hockey coaches. I call them influencers on Instagram are doing these crazy things that you don't see guys here do.
[Erik Kallio]
You're asking, is there certain players have to skate? There's a certain foundation and fundamental skill set that all players need to have. And you know, players that have more hip mobility, for example, than other players may be able to do something a little bit better than some players ever.
But that's not going to mean like, well, this player, you should push straight back. Whereas you're a different type of skater, you should push out at an angle. When you're skating, everyone's going to have to push out at an angle.
You can't say, well, this player is push this straight back. You know, there are certain principles that are going to apply to everybody. You know, and then, you know, within that as you get older.
And like as Angel says, you get to, you know, these older guys, these college and pro guys, you work within certain things. Like I don't feel complete, you know, there's, you know, one pro I was working with. I was like, you know, I was like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I don't feel comfortable doing exactly what you're saying.
I'm like, okay, what do you feel comfortable with? And then we talked about it. And it was such a minor difference between what I wanted him to do and what he felt comfortable with.
I'm like, okay, as long as you do it this way, I'm good with that. You know, so, and it was just a very minor difference. Nothing major where, you know, so I think they're, they're principles.
That are going to apply to everybody that to be a great skater. You have to be able to do certain fundamental things correctly.
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, Eric and I say, think of it like a toolbox, right? Towards the end. Towards as you get older, we'll just keep filling up that toolbox with more and more tools.
You have to realize though, what situation, what tool you're going to use that will apply best in that game situation. Gimmicki or not, I don't think it is, but we are starting to call it hockey skating IQ, right? Where, okay, am I in the right spot?
Am I reading the playwright? That's hockey IQ. Okay, but what about skating IQ?
Okay, so I get the puck. I go to take off with my feet are wide. I'm not accelerating.
Okay, that probably wasn't the great time to have your feet that wide and not go fast. Maybe you had to take off and start going a lot faster. It was Sheldon Keith.
He was just at his feet really wide. And so there are times where Eric and I have talked about like a stubborn maybe as we are. And it's not even what we think.
It's what we know and what we have learned talking to strength coaches and talking to biomechanic professors. There are certain things. You can't change our minds.
Like gravity works in a certain way. It has to be this way. You're not going to change our minds.
Could you? You could try. Yeah, if you provide new scientific reasons to show that like this is the way it has to be because of this.
Okay, but you can't just tell me, well, you got to do this because that's what I think. Like, okay, well, that's wrong. But then you can go to different types of players.
I think the two easiest players to compare were Panerin and Chris Crider. Right? So you're watching Panerin and Chris Crider.
Both are very good hockey players. Both are complete different players. They're complete different skaters.
Panerin's very upright. Chris Crider's straight full speed the whole time. But why can't we get a little Panerin in Crider where maybe he slows down in certain times of the game?
How about we give a little bit of Crider to Panerin where all right now he's going to create a little more time and space in the playoffs. Not given the Rangers anything to work on though. But that's those are different types of players and skaters.
Yeah, everyone's not going to skate the same, but there are certain things where you have to. Like that's how to get the most out of it. So like a forward stride like Sheldon Keefe was just doing.
Can you skate wide? Absolutely. Scotty Gomez did it his entire career, but his crossovers were so freaking good that once he got into the neutral zone, he didn't have to take another stride.
He could just stay wide and he could shuffle side to side. But that was his type of style. Now, could he have lengthened his stride like Scott Niedermeyer?
Yeah. Could it have completely changed his game for bad? Maybe because that's what he was used to where you have some guys like Eric Carlson.
We were lucky enough. Eric and I were in San Jose and we're watching Eric Carlson six rows back. We were given free tickets.
We can't inform that. So we were given tickets and we're watching him. And I remember watching Eric Carlson skate around the net pick up the puck and keep his feet wide.
And I'm like, I thought Eric Carlson was a pretty good skater and we were watching him. And then all of a sudden the third time he picked up the puck from behind the net. He passed it to a winger who was at the far blue.
And Eric Carlson took off and he pulled his feet in, locked his leg perfectly. And he just went on a breakaway and scored. And I was like, he just really changed his stride mid game, mid shift.
Like that's unheard of. Right. So you get different players, different types.
So like Eric said, there's not one size fit all. That's for sure.
[Jason Jacobs]
So if you wanted to assess my skating or my kid skating or whatever. I mean, is it just like take a few laps and I'll watch or do you really need to see him in a game environment to know where he's at and what he needs to work on?
[Erik Kallio]
I mean, some of the things too, like, you know, you know, when we run our clinics, we get a variety of ages, you know, and younger players, seven, eight, nine year olds, ten year olds, what. You know, younger players, they're going to do what you say, 90% plus of the time, just because you're the adult. And that's what they've always done.
And, you know, they do what you ask and they do it the best and they're really fun to work with. But we know when we see older players come out, you know, we see a teenager. You see a 16, 17 year old come on the ice.
That's the age where players got to really want to work on their skating. And if they don't want to work on it at that age, they're not going to make a change. So if they think they know better and they can't learn that you can't make them faster.
They're not. It doesn't matter who the coach is. They could be the best coach that's ever stepped on the face of this earth.
They're not going to learn from that coach. So we know that when we see those players specifically, we kind of almost like in warmups. We haven't even brought it in introduced ourselves.
Players are just skating around. We've done a quick stretch that walks them go take a couple laps at speed around the ice. We kind of make a B line for them.
They came in. You look like a great skater, but I just, you know, I noticed watching you like you do X, Y and Z and we could fix those areas and make you faster. And when you go to those players, especially those slightly older players that are kind of unsure if they want to be there and want to learn from you.
Like, wow, that coach came right over to me. They noticed a few things right off the bat and just said, Hey, we can make these faster. And that goes a long way with players.
We're like, he watched me and already picked out three things within 20 seconds of watching you go around. And we didn't see everything that you do because we didn't see you go backwards. We didn't see your transition.
We just looked at your crossovers, your forward stride and could pick out two, three, four things right there. Hey, I can make you faster. We can make these changes, but you got to want to make these changes with us and we can teach you to do it.
But you got to put the work in to get there and usually right there, that connection that's made within the first two minutes of them being with us. Most of the time that they're locked in, they're like, all right, I'm going to listen to this guy. I don't know who he is yet, but he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
[Jason Jacobs]
Do you guys feel equipped with focus on mechanics alone to make material changes? Or are there other areas outside of your jurisdiction, if you will, that you really rely on to do their part? For example, if players, what a player's progress, two extra three acts, which you could do with the mechanics alone, if they worked on certain things in the gym.
And if so, is there any coordination or should there be any coordination across the different service providers?
[Angelo Serse]
That 100%. I mean, there are so many times we're here in Newark. It's the strength coach, the sports science team, the skills coach and me all talking together.
We're always talking. Even if it's a youth player, we just had a player, his dad may have just walked by, where his body angle was not great when he was skating. And it goes back to the sled push, where I go upstairs, I watch him work out for a few minutes.
He's doing sled pushes to become quicker, and his upper body is straight up again. And I was like, that's exactly how you skate on the ice. And I go, it's exactly what you're doing here.
And then he fixes it in the gym, and then it starts to correlate to on the ice. They 100% go hand in hand. There's so many times where I'm working with a guy, even this morning, the player's upper body keeps falling over, keeps falling over, just on simple inside outside edges.
And I'm like, okay, just simple knee shoulder has to line up, be in front of your toe. And then 10 minutes later, he's working with the skills coach. He's doing a few warm up shots, and guess what starts to happen?
His chest starts to come down again. And then the skills coach goes to him and is like, hey, if your chest goes down, your shot becomes inconsistent. And I go, did we just talk about that?
You see how it goes hand in hand? It is, it has to come together. Because it's all the same.
[Erik Kallio]
And I was just going to say, you know, it's one thing that ends on ice. We can make someone a pretty skater. But just because you're a pretty technically correct skater, it's not necessarily going to make you fast if you don't have a big engine.
You know, and then some of our good friends are strength coaches, you know, the head strength coach there for the devil's now. Joe Lawrence, I went to high school with I was best friends with an high school. He can put in a big engine into a player, you know, in the gym.
But if you take that big engine, you put it on the ice and their mechanics are just terrible. It doesn't matter how strong they are. They're not going to be a great skater.
So some players, you know, we have different tools that we use. We have a 1080 sprint machine that we use that measures players, you know, skating their power, their speed, you know, tracks left and right leg. We get a ton of information.
And some players, it shows like, listen, your mechanics are great, but you're not producing the power. You need to get into the gym, you know, or some players are like, you have a ton of power, but you're not that fast. This is a mechanics issue.
This is us. Yeah. Oh, and some players like get in the gym, you know, so different, you know, so it's, it's the cohesion between the on ice, the off ice, the different skills coaches.
It's not a, you know, only go to only work on off ice and you'll be fast. That's, you know.
[Jason Jacobs]
And I mean, given that, you know, if you, if you got, you guys could probably feel, you know, 40 hours in a week just working on skating and helping drive meaningful improvement. But so could the shooting coach and so could the strength coach and so could the sports psychologist and, and, you know, everyone wants more, right. And so both from a budget and just a time and kind of overdoing it standpoint, you know, how should people think about skating?
Is it like short bursts when you can squeeze it in? Is it a little bit consistently ongoing? Is it some of both?
Like, what, what would be optimal in a world, you know, put aside money and time and, and competing interest? Like, like, how much is too much and what's the right rhythm?
[Angelo Serse]
I mean, we're in the business, the hockey business, and it is a business. At the end of the day, we want to make money. If we wanted to become rich, I say all the time I went to medical school, right?
I know I'm not going to become a millionaire doing this coaching hockey. It is a passion and we do fine, right? But we do it to better these players.
So we have had some players sign up for too many camps. If you're signing up for four or five during this year for camps, that's too many. Like two or three is probably your, your good sweet spot where do your spring one, a summer one, and in a winter one.
That's a sweet spot, right? And it becomes a good habit over time. And then as you get older, like we have two players, his father says it all the time.
My boys need to come see to get a reset, right? And so we're watching him, whether he's playing at Wisconsin or the other ones playing for Carolina, we see little things that, okay, they could still get even faster, even better. And it just becomes a reset.
When they come back, it's just a reminder. I have some guys here. I have a daily reminder to swing their arms.
Just swing your arm. That's it. Right?
Four check back check. Just use that arm swing because some, there's, yes, because they got the skill coach talking to them. They have their, their head coach talking on their D coach.
Their specific power play coach. A lot of times it's so much information. Just a simple reminder at times, especially for the youth player.
It's, that's why even we always say what's the difference between a private lesson and a, a camp. There's pros and cons to both. The, I work with a junior team as well.
And it's once a week. We do one theme every single day, but we may go two to three weeks, maybe a month without hitting a fundamental push. And so then we come back to it and they're like, oh, wow, we completely forgot about that.
And that's normal. But then in a clinic, that's where you can continue to work on everything for three to four days in a row. And we don't have to review as much and you get more out of it.
So that's why the clinics are just so much better at times because, and how you structure it. There are times where, oh, wow, like Eric and I were talking about the other day. We've been working with a guy for weeks and we haven't even got the backwards.
We kind of forgot to work on that. So it's a little unstructured at times. But there is definitely too little where you definitely, you just come for one clinic of ours.
I don't care how much better we can be at it. If you just come one time, thanks for the donation, right? Because that's not going to do anything.
It could give you some information, but there's no way a player or a child is going to retain that information and take it for the rest of their life.
[Erik Kallio]
Yeah, I mean, exactly what Angela said. It's the long term game. You know, it's the sweet spot is two to three in a year.
You know, and you can make a lot of improvements, but you got to be dedicated to putting the time in year after year. And that's where a lot of people fall off is they might do. You know, they might do two or three for, you know, two, three years and their kids become great skaters.
And then we hear from them and then they take a break. And then three years later, we are like skating falling apart. Well, no kidding, because you haven't worked.
You haven't put any of that focused time in over the course of three years, you know, and the players that really become great skaters that are lasting skaters dedicate that time put that time in year after year. And we now get players that, you know, they're 15, 16 years old. They're amazing skaters, but, you know, they've been working on it since they were seven and then we'll get a player that comes to us and be like, Hey, you made Johnny.
Skate amazing. He said the reason he's so good is because he works with you guys. Can you make my player that good of a skater be like, I mean, we could start the work, but they've been working on it now for seven years, you know, multiple times a year.
So we can't replace that time, but we can get started now. So, you know, when's the best time to start working on your skating now, but don't overdo it. You know, like Angel was saying, I talked one parent out of that wanted to register for eight of our programs this summer.
And I said, as a business, that would be amazing. But as a coach as a development coach, that's awful for development because one, will he get better? Yeah, but he could get burnt out of working on a skating and then never wanted to work on it again for another year.
Ever. And then that one summer, you might have made a lot of improvements, but we know it's year after year of working on it. So putting in some focus time two to three times a year.
Make a massive difference when you, you know, compound that over years.
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, I think to just about the money thing. So we, we know we have competition who charges way more than us. We know we don't charge as much as them.
Could we make more money? Yes. Do we think it's getting out of control?
Yes. But then we also at the end of the day, it is a business where every, I feel like I get a call from Eric every day. He's just fighting with ranks and he's just fighting with them over price.
And they're like, well, we're going to go from five, fifty to six, fifty this year per hour. And we're getting 20 hours from them. Like, that's an insane difference over one year.
And we're trying to keep it as, as little as possible for the consumer. And it's becoming very hard, unfortunately. But then in the other way, some people look at it there.
We've had some people in my area and I've talked to my sister about this who's in the hockey world. And she's like, you don't charge enough. People don't think you're good.
And I'm like, you can't win. So it's, it is a lot. And it's an expensive sport.
I'm looking at it from my six year old and I'm like, oh, he just started liking hockey and I'm like, there goes my bag account. You kind of just know getting into it, it's expensive.
[Jason Jacobs]
And I know we're running up on time, but I'm curious, maybe last topic, but what role do you see technology playing now? And in the future. And also, what role do you see remote or virtual playing, if any, now or in the future?
[Erik Kallio]
So, you know, I mean, technology is great. And there's certain things that are amazing about technology in terms of we like we use video analysis and that all the time and being able to do it really quickly, you know, on the ice with a player. A group of players, right, pull out, you know, a lot of times we'll pull our phone, film them, and then we can watch it in our apps frame by frame.
Okay, see what you're doing. And because oftentimes what players feel might be different than what's actually happening. So having that visual of immediately being able to show me, see, you didn't lock your leg.
You thought you did, but you didn't. That's really powerful. So we do a lot of video analysis for all players, you know, we offered it all our clinics, because a lot of times players then see what they're doing and how they have to fix it.
So that, I mean, that part of technology is unbelievable. I've actually, I've done a couple kind of working with players virtually that live in different parts of the country. And it can work.
I don't think a virtual lesson will ever work if they have no foundation with us, you know, because I can't say, Hey, you're doing this. I need you to do X, Y, and Z. And I need you to be in.
I need you to lock your leg. I need you to bring your feet back in a V. And they just can't understand what I'm talking about without me.
They're demoing. So if they've never worked with us being able to make those changes virtually is just never going to happen. But if you could compliment it with, you've worked with us and we can, you know, I've had players, they've worn air pods, put their phone on the boards and I'm sat there and watched them talk to them in the year the whole time.
But they knew exactly what I was saying. I want you to make this correction. You're not doing this.
Now go do this drill. Let me see it and make those corrections. So there's a role, but it's, it's, you know, not perfect, but it's better than nothing for some of these players.
[Angelo Serse]
I think with technology, it's starting to become pretty cool. And I know talking with guys from the NHL about some of the technology that's coming. And Eric talked about it before, like we're using our 1080 sprint.
We've become very close with those guys and kind of consulted with them as well. When you tell a player that they're not as fast because their feet are wide, right? Like players are like, okay, but I still feel like I'm going fast.
Okay. Well, now we know if you pull your feet in, you're going to be up to 20% faster. So now we have concrete numbers.
So then we can have a player go on the 1080. We get their numbers. Okay, it took you three seconds to go 15 meters.
Okay. Now next summer, obviously you're going to get a little stronger, a little taller, but that doesn't always mean you're going to go faster on the ice because it's slippery. But now we, now we've seen that that 15 meters now it's taken 2.5 seconds. Now your power has gone up. Your stride length has gone up. And we can see so many more things.
And it's just, it's cool to see concrete numbers. Do we need that technology? No, but it just gets the players to buy in more.
So like even when Eric was talking about, do we need to have a player in a game skate? No, no, no. Take a lap, take one lap down and then crossover on the corners.
I can bring you right in. All right, you do this, this and this on your stride, this and this on your crossovers incorrectly. Now we could be like, all right, you're losing X amount of speed and we know that because of the data that we have found and the studies we have done using the 1080 sprint.
So the technology part of it, so cool and fascinating. It's not needed, but it helps.
[Jason Jacobs]
Do you think you could train the machines to to just ride analysis the way that that the machines are starting to get trained to analyze golf swings? There may be AI coming.
[Erik Kallio]
Yeah, but I think there's also to a little bit of, you know, like, you know, AI and everywhere it's going. I think there's always going to be a personal thing that AI can never do, you know, because the way you communicate it to someone, the relationship you have with them. The trust that these players build up in you that you're not leading them in the wrong direction to is something that I don't know if AI can ever do.
I mean, I know there's there's times to, and Angel and I joked about it, you know, a player I might have worked with for years. And then all of a sudden, you know, me and Angel on the ice together at a clinic, he's at the players at the clinic and he go in that player comes over me and go, Hey, Angel just told me that I have to do this on my stride. And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like, I've told you that a hundred times, but Angelo said it a slightly different way with a little joke in there differently than me. And it connected with the player, you know, we're saying the same exact thing trying to community, but it resonated, which however he said it. So maybe he was ready to absorb it at the time, or it's just, you know, so I don't think AI is great as it is.
It can break things down, but, you know, AI can be able to teach someone that I don't know, but it can never analyze for sure.
[Angelo Serse]
And the one question that Eric and I have always talked about, can AI analyze your stride? The answer is yes, it can. There may be a meeting next week about it, right?
As a parent, you're paying us to analyze his skating. Do you want to hear us or do you want to hear a robot?
[Jason Jacobs]
Yeah, but what something for you guys to think about is, is these tools aren't just to circumvent the humans. They can also be used so that the human feels more empowered to serve more people without compromising quality or take things that were previously kind of the eye test and actually put some rigor. Around it, but it would require you trusting the machines so that they're not compromising your, your standards as well.
But, but yeah, in some ways you could almost be the composer, right, versus just, you know, versus just the musician. I agree with that.
[Erik Kallio]
Like having, having AI confirm what you're doing and saying and stuff like that. And it's great. I mean, and that's why I think it's an addition.
I don't think it's ever going to replace, but I don't either. But it's a, but it's a great addition that can only make things better, you know, because like I said, and players got to trust away. So when they make changes and they see the change is affecting their speed, their power output.
That just reinforces of what you're teaching them is working. And that, you know, that in and of itself builds trust too. So.
[Jason Jacobs]
And I know, Angela is about to turn into a pumpkin. He's got to get on the ice. So is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did or any parting words for listeners?
[Erik Kallio]
I mean, I think my only parting words would be, you know, there's no magic pill out there to become a great skater. You know, it would be great if there was, but the players that become great skaters and great hockey players, it's because they dedicated themselves over time. Anyone, you know, looking for the shortcut, I wish there was a shortcut.
They're just, you know, there is no shortcut to becoming great at any skill. So putting that time in over years, that's what it takes. So it's the end, but that's also the hardest part to be like, I know I'm playing the long game versus I just want to fix now.
But that's what it takes. And the players that do that, they have a lot of success, no matter what level they're at, whether they make the NHL or not, that's that they might just turn into a great high school hockey player, which in the end is awesome. Be a great high school hockey player.
Putting in the time to something like you're skating is going to help you be that great high school hockey player and have a lot of fun.
[Jason Jacobs]
And whoa, anything to add?
[Angelo Serse]
Yeah, I think this could be almost kind of a family guy thing like grinds my gears. It's, we've always thought it was just because we're doing skating and it's the most boring thing to work on. But a lot of times players don't want to put in the work to do it.
They just want to play games. Like Eric said before, when are we going to scrimmage? We've found the same thing with our skills coach.
Our skills coach here. He has taught me more about my own shooting, puck placement, hand placement. And I retired 15 years ago.
Like it did. I don't even play really men's league, right? So it's when you get an opportunity to work with a specific coach, a skills coach or a skating coach.
Take advantage of that. Players often just goof around, mess around, and it's so infuriating whether he knows what he's doing or not. Like maybe you take one thing from that person.
If you don't believe in what that person's teaching you, okay, maybe you'll learn one thing, but you have to work hard at it. Like you're not just going to go play games and become a really good hockey player. Because during the season coaches don't have time to work on these specific needs that a player has.
That's why you go to that special class. You get taken out of your school for your skills coach. You get taken out of school for your skating coach.
That's how you become better in those games. And it just, it makes it so much more fun. It's what I did not have as a kid.
I was never taught any of this. And it's just so frustrating now that my shot is okay now compared to terrible. So, and it's all just, and it's not even him teaching me.
It was me just being on the ice listening to him. So work hard. So that is becomes more fun.
[Jason Jacobs]
Well, thanks guys. How do people learn more about Prostride?
[Erik Kallio]
You can check us out on the web at prostride.com. We're at ranks, you know, all over the country, a lot in the northeast, but we're in California, Florida, Virginia. You know, so check us out.
You know, we'll come to your local rink. Say hello when you see us in the rink and you know, feel free to, yeah, exactly. It just sitting down and putting my skates on ready to go work with a, with a pro guy and, you know, just started talking.
But, but yeah, prostride.com, our full schedule comes online end of December, early January for 2026. But we've got some of our upcoming holiday clinics as well. So hopefully we get to see some new players we haven't got to work with, you know, they just learned about us.
[Angelo Serse]
And, and of course, on any social media, because if we don't have, if we don't have followers, right, that doesn't, that means we don't know what we're doing. So we always like to put up good content up there, good stuff, bad stuff to try to educate parents and players as best as we can.
[Jason Jacobs]
Awesome. Well, thanks again, guys. And I'll see you in the rink soon.
[Angelo Serse]
Thank you so much.
[Jason Jacobs]
Thanks for listening to Puck Academy. If you enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with someone serious about their game. See you next week.