In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs chats with brothers Sean and Tyler Walsh, who come from a legendary hockey coaching family. Sean is an assistant coach at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, while Tyler is the head men's coach at Gustavus Adolphus College. They discuss their upbringing in a deeply hockey-centric family and how it shaped their paths into coaching. Key topics include the nature vs. nurture debate in athletic and coaching development, differences in coaching styles over generations, and evolving gameplay strategies. They also delve into recruitment, the increasing skill levels in college hockey, and the importance of individual skill development. They also touch on how they use analytics for performance improvement and the balance parents should strike in supporting their children’s athletic pursuits without leading to burnout.
In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs talks with Sean and Tyler Walsh, brothers from a legendary hockey family. Sean, an assistant coach at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, and Tyler, the head men's hockey coach at Gustavus Adolphus College, share their experiences of growing up in a hockey-centric environment and their journey into coaching. They delve into discussions on coaching philosophies, the nature versus nurture debate, player development, and the evolving style of modern hockey. The episode also covers the balance between recruiting and development, the role of data and analytics, and advice for parents navigating the increasingly competitive landscape of youth hockey.
00:00 Introduction to Puck Academy
00:15 Meet the Walsh Brothers
00:52 Growing Up in a Legendary Hockey Family
01:30 Coaching Philosophies and Player Development
12:36 Nature vs. Nurture in Coaching
16:34 Evolution of Hockey Coaching Styles
21:53 Traits of Successful Hockey Players
41:18 Balancing Recruitment and Development
44:44 Recruiting Philosophy and Player Development
46:37 Challenges and Advantages of Playing in Alaska
54:02 The Role of Data and Analytics in Hockey
59:56 Teaching Through Scoring Chances
01:05:05 The Importance of Hockey IQ 0
1:13:56 Balancing Specialization and Multi-Sport Development
01:15:33 Final Thoughts and Advice for Parents
[Jason] (0:00 - 2:01)
Welcome to Puck Academy, a show about how hockey players grow on and off the ice. I'm Jason Jacobs, the host. And each week I talk with players, coaches, and experts shaping the future of player development.
Today's guests are brothers Sean and Tyler Walsh. Sean is an assistant coach with the University of Alaska Fairbanks, the Nanooks Men's Hockey Program. He joined the Nanooks staff ahead of the 25-26 season after serving as assistant coach and recruiting coordinator at Bowdoin College in Maine.
His brother Tyler is the head men's hockey coach at Gustavus Adolphus College in Minnesota, hired in spring of 2024, and he came to Gustavus after six seasons at Colby College, also in Maine, where he served as assistant coach and recruiting coordinator. I was excited for this one. These guys come from a legendary hockey family.
Their father Shawn Walsh was the head coach at University of Maine for many years, and built a dynasty there, and it was fascinating to talk to these guys about what it was like growing up in that kind of hockey coaching environment, what led them down the path of becoming coaches themselves. We also have a really interesting discussion about nature versus nurture, both as it relates to athletes and hockey players, but also as it relates to coaches as well and how much of it's in your blood and how much of it do you pick up just by being surrounded by coaching at a high level all the time. We talk about the coaching philosophies of each of the brothers as well as their programs.
We talk about the state of hockey and player development, some of the changes that have been happening and what impacts Tyler and Sean are seeing on their programs and on college hockey in general, and we also talk about the future and advice for any players and families trying to figure it out. Really great one, and I hope you enjoy it. Tyler, Sean, welcome to the show, guys.
[Tyler] (2:01 - 2:05)
Thanks, Jason, for having us. Happy to be here. Thanks, Jason.
[Jason] (2:05 - 2:21)
Oh, yeah. No, I'm psyched that you guys came. I don't know how this is going to show up like if it'll be in the same order on the YouTube, but I'm like right in the middle of you guys, which is intimidating.
But I've been warned that you guys are pretty competitive with each other. So maybe, maybe it's a good thing competitive, not us.
[Sean] (2:22 - 2:23)
No, never.
[Jason] (2:23 - 3:03)
Well, I'm real excited to do this. We initially we were going to do individual episodes with each of you. And with last minute, we decided to put you guys together.
I mean, each of you has an interesting story and backgrounds I want to dig into. So, but I think it'd be fun to do this especially since your brothers. And although you grew up in different dates, you talked every day and you're ultra competitive with each other, and you used to be in the same league on opposing teams.
So I mean, that right there makes for a pretty interesting recipe for a show.
[Tyler] (3:04 - 3:14)
Yeah, not just the same league, but arrival teams for three years. So that definitely added a little bit of our compete in our relationship, I would think.
[Sean] (3:15 - 3:19)
Absolutely. They play each other this weekend too, actually funny enough, both our former teams.
[Jason] (3:19 - 3:23)
And that's Bowdoin and Colby for listeners. Where's the game?
[Sean] (3:23 - 3:31)
It's at Bowdoin. So Bowdoin took care of business at Colby for the, what was it, the first time in over a decade, right? Controversial.
Earlier this year.
[Jason] (3:32 - 3:34)
Did that go to overtime if I remember right?
[Sean] (3:34 - 3:41)
It didn't. The polar bears pulled it out with a minute and a half left in the game. Got the effort.
It was good to see.
[Jason] (3:41 - 4:03)
Well, for starters, I mean, you guys come from a legendary hockey family. It'd be great to just hear a little bit about what that was like growing up and, you know, and, and if you could have predicted growing up that you'd be doing what you're each doing today. Sean, you want to start?
[Sean] (4:03 - 4:32)
Honestly, I think a little bit easier for me to predict it. Because I think Big Bro laid the groundwork. It was pretty good for me.
We had a similar start into how we broke into the business. Neither of us were, were very good players. Like every time we do a Zoom with a player, I'm like, Hey, I was 25% of the player, 10% of the player that you ever were.
And Tyler was probably 5%. Um, but neither of us had a strong hockey. A strong hockey bag.
[Jason] (4:32 - 4:33)
How do you get that in there? Good work.
[Sean] (4:33 - 5:57)
I just slip it in always, right? But neither of us played at a super high level. And at least for me growing up, you know, when I was about.
10, 11, 12 years old, Tyler was a student assistant with the university in Maine in or no. Um, and I was a big fan at that point. And I was able to go to the games and watch him work with the team and his process as a student assistant as he started his coaching career.
And I basically followed in those footsteps like he laid out the groundwork for me. We worked for different coaches. Tyler worked for Tim Whitehead at Maine.
I worked for Red Gendron. And, you know, that's basically I, I went in as a senior in high school. I said, look, I want to get into coaching.
I'll work for free. I'll work for four years. And I'll do whatever you guys say.
And it started off as filling water bottles and folding towels. And it quickly turned into getting on the ice more and working on skill development, getting onto the video side of things, learning how to use the video software, at least for me. I think starting with a video background was absolutely massive, not playing at a high level.
Learning the ins and outs of the game at a high level, you know, with the staff and Red Gendron, Ben Guite and Alfie Micho, who all had NHL experience, right? So it was, it was a phenomenal experience for me. And obviously, Tyler laid the groundwork for it because he did it first.
[Jason] (5:57 - 5:58)
So what about you, Tyler?
[Tyler] (5:59 - 9:10)
Yeah, like Sean said, pretty similar kind of path. You know, I think if you asked either of us, if we had a feeling we'd be coaches, you know, it's all, it's all we've known. You know, our father, coach, University of Maine, grandfather, coach of Michigan State.
So, you know, when you say kind of following the family trade, that's what it was. And when you're around it every day, growing up, whether it's, you know, you're a 10 year old in Michigan State, you know, beats school action. You go down to the locker room and you feel that joy, that excitement, kind of see how high level coaches operate, you know, not only in the rink, but away from the rink, you know, you pick up on a lot of things.
And I don't know what else I'd be doing, to be honest. I have a degree in business, but I'm not very good at math. So, you know, I think, I think this is kind of a natural progression.
And you just learn to get that passion. You know, you're around it. And again, you feel the joy and the good times, but you also feel the stress and the tough times.
And that's just part of it. And you enjoy, you enjoy that adversity and enjoy those tough times because it makes the good ones feel so much better. But I was, I was at Maine, like Sean said, and, you know, under Tim Whitehead and we had some really good teams while I was there and was fortunate enough right after to be the director of hockey operations at Kinesha's College in Buffalo, New York with Dave Smith and had a good team there as well.
And then what kind of changed my, I don't see trajectory, but what really helped me was being able to coach two years at the National Team Development Program. So, Dan Cole, who played for my grandfather at Michigan State, I was an assistant coach under him with the 1998 group. So, a lot of current former NHL players were on that team.
And that program itself is just as much as a coach development program as it is a player. You're surrounded by just high level, passionate, hockey minds. So, really learned a lot through those two years and got to coach some high level players and then took a head coaching job in prep school in Maine, which, which I really learned more about myself than probably anything else through those two years and just what is my, what is my voice, what, you know, what, you know, what personality is me and how do you be true to yourself.
So, I would did that for two years and I was six years at Colby College as an assistant coach under Blaze McDonald, who's, you know, he's been coaching for a long time. So, he's kind of been there and done it and got to see how he operates at a high level and, you know, he's coached himself as a head coach, but has also worked under some high level coaches as well. So, just a wealth of knowledge and really learned the recruiting trade more so in that position.
And now I met Gustavus here in Minnesota and going on my second year as a head coach. So, it's been, you know, journey through different places, but you learn along the way and, you know, I don't know what else I'd be doing. I do nothing else.
[Sean] (9:11 - 9:15)
On the same way and you and Tyler saying he's not good at math. That's an understatement.
[Jason] (9:16 - 10:09)
Again, got to find a way to get it in, Sean. I respect that little brother. So, all right.
So, a couple of threads I want to pull on and you two happen to be the perfect people for each of them. The first is, there seems to be a narrative in hockey that, like, I've heard people, like, I have friends, I won't name any names. Maybe they'll be listening and they'll, they'll still have to be like, were you talking about me, but who played the game at a high level, who say things like, like, I wouldn't send my kid to the echo, which I mean the most he played was at this level, right?
So, so one narrative is the whole, like, you have to have played the game at a high level to coach the game at a high level. That's one thread, right? And then the other thread is I've asked a ton of players who have come on the show that have played at a high level about nature versus nurture when it comes to playing.
I want to ask each of you the same question when it comes to coaching and you're the perfect people for it, given your lineage.
[Tyler] (10:09 - 11:07)
Yeah. I think for people that say you had to have played at a high level to be a good coach, I would mention some high level coaches that didn't play at a high level. And the first being our father, you know, he was a walk on third string goalie at Bowling Green University, decided he wasn't ever going to play.
So, he became, he coached the junior varsity team back then and became a graduate assistant with our grandfather at Bowling Green. So, I think in my opinion, what I've tried to do with my staff is surround myself with people who did play at a high level and help me be a better coach. You know, we have one assistant, Ethan Schwartz, who's got a lot of experience in junior hockey and then Justin Close, who was a goaltender at the University of Minnesota.
So, I'm able to learn from those guys, you know, kind of the ins and the outs as well from, you know, players perspective and kind of use that and get my lens around it as well.
[Sean] (11:08 - 12:34)
Yeah. And there's a ton of other coaches too, right? Like John Cooper's one that comes to mind.
What two, three Stanley Cup champion championships, coach of the years, everything. And obviously for him, he had a lot of degree, he had a lawyer background. And that's how he got started into it.
So, I think for us, it's something that you're definitely aware of and there's some people that that'll bring it up and. But like, like Tyler said, I mean, our dad's the best, the best example of it, not playing at a high level and he was able to do it coaching wise at the highest of levels, you know, in an elite way. So that's something that I think makes it easier for us coming from that bloodline.
It does definitely make it easier to combat that narrative a little bit. But like you said, Jason, I think it's, it is cool because we do have a unique perspective on things not coming from a playing background and the work that's required for us to get to the levels that we're at is honestly probably more than somebody who did play because experiences experience and Red Gendron would always say, when I worked with him at Maine, you can't buy experience at Target and playing experience matters.
It does. It helps you get in. And there is that narrative that that that it does help you as a coach, but for us, we had to fight that.
And we really had to grind our way up to get to the levels that we're at.
[Jason] (12:34 - 12:41)
And what about the nature versus nurture questions you guys think your coaches because you were around it or your coaches because it's in your blood.
[Tyler] (12:41 - 14:15)
I would say a little bit of both, more so because we were around it. You know, I think I look at, you know, the summertime and I didn't go to daycare. My daycare was Al Fonderina, you know, an oral main and that are Monorina at Michigan State.
So you're just you're constantly around it. I think if, you know, a lot of people when they're when their father's a mechanic, you know, or their family's got a mechanic business, there's probably a good chance that they're going to be a mechanic themselves. And, you know, I think being around it, but then also, you know, with the whole bloodline thing, I think it's, you know, again, it kind of goes into the nature, you know, the nurture part.
But, you know, at the end of the day, like, yeah, we have obviously our father, grandfather, we're really good coaches, but we're also our own people, you know, we've kind of created our own path. So, you know, it gives you that passion, like I said, but, you know, at the end of the day, I, you know, I'm not like a stavis because, you know, my father coached at you made, you know, and Sean's not coaching the division one level because his, you know, father, grandfather were good coaches. You know, we've really had to work hard and, and as Sean said, you know, it's, it's been a grind, but it's, it's fun and you enjoy it and it makes you better, honestly.
And it to go back to that narrative, like at the end of the day, I don't really care. You know, people say that narrative. That's fine.
That's your opinion. I'm just going to do what I do and hopefully do it at a high level. So, you know, I doesn't really, you know, it's there, but, you know, it's, to me, it's just kind of smoke.
[Sean] (14:16 - 16:34)
100% and then back to the question nature versus nurture. I, it might be a cop help, but I do think it's a bit of both too. Like obviously both me and my brother are very competitive, just like our dad was just like grandpa was.
And I'm sure that plays a part of it. I think, you know, like he said, if, if our dad was a mechanic, maybe we would have been mechanics, but we would have been very competitive mechanics, right? So there is definitely a part of growing up in that environment where you're constantly surrounded by wins and losses, right?
Which at the end of the day, it is a results oriented business and, and we did grow up in that. And that's something that as we saw that growing up and we experienced it and that definitely molded us into, into how we are. I do think for, and I can speak for Tyler at this as well, we've been very competitive at a young since we were young, right?
And I think some of that comes from our dad or grandpa and that family lineage and our other brother Travis, right? Like he played at a very high level. He played at Michigan State.
He had the same thing. So for all three of us, hockey has been a massive part of our lives. But like Tyler said, we, we all do it differently.
When I worked for, for Maine, Alfie Michaud was one of our assistants. He's, he's an incredible assistant coach up there. Great recruiter and probably one of, if not the best bully coaches in the business.
And Alfie always talked about the buffet of coaching and it's like, you know, you work for a few different people and you're close to many people. Like I would put Tyler in this category for me and I'm sure I am for him. But, you know, I've worked for the likes of Ben Guite, who's a phenomenal coach at Bowdoin, Kevin Swaller, one of the winningest coaches at the Division 1 and Division 3 levels.
Regendron, obviously, Stanley Cup champion. And here I'm very fortunate to be able to work for Eric Largen, who's, who's the head coach here at the University of Alaska. And as you continue to grow and you continue to build your own coaching philosophy and everybody's is different, you kind of, you decide what you want to take.
You decide what you want to leave, right? You know, like I'll have a little bit of that, but maybe I'm going to pass on this for my own coaching. But you get to take things from the people that you work around and, and I think that's kind of how you mold, mold yourself into your own, into your own coach.
[Jason] (16:34 - 16:59)
One question that I have for you guys is your dad had a coaching style and, and back then, right, I mean, there was a coaching style and I get that your dad's coaching style wasn't necessarily, you know, was a little different than, than some of the other coaches of the day. But Tyler, I've heard you talk about how, you know, how the, like the style of play at, at Gustavus, for example, did I say that right Gustavus?
[Tyler] (16:59 - 17:00)
Close enough.
[Jason] (17:01 - 17:02)
How do you say it?
[Tyler] (17:02 - 17:03)
Gustavus.
[Jason] (17:03 - 17:23)
But that it's a modern game, right? I mean, I'm interested just to just to think about, like, how, how has the style of coaching evolved from your dad's day to today. And, and, and how, how the game evolved under its feet.
[Tyler] (17:23 - 19:36)
Yeah. I mean, it's always evolving. You know, I think if you say it's not, then you're pretty naive.
It's hard to speak on exactly how it was played when he was coaching because we were young, but I would be hard pressed not to think it's one, probably faster. You know, just the training that athletes go through now and whether it's nutrition skills coaches, starting at a younger age, more players, you know, the speed of the game has, you know, and also how it's officiated. You know, so there's far more penalties being called now that definitely weren't when he was coaching.
So the speed of the game is probably much higher. I would think, you know, defenseman being activated is definitely a big theme in today's game. The days of we have three forwards and two defensive and I believe are over.
You know, I think it's more of a five man unit, you know, and your forwards need to learn how to play defense. They need to learn how to skate backwards. Your defensive need to learn how to carry a rush and drive the net and activate in the offensive zone and have the reads and the feel for that versus, you know, hey, we've got three guys are going to have the puck and look to score.
We have two guys that are only going to look to defend. And I'm not saying that's what the game was or how he coached, but in my belief, that's what it's turned into now today. And I think the teams that can really that can really hone in on that, you know, quote unquote, that five man, you know, versus three and two will have some success.
And I know here it's, you know, in our league, that was kind of, I would call it experiment last year. You know, in my first year as a head coach, really honing in on that concept and practicing it and putting our forwards in a lot of situations that they probably haven't been in before. But learning how to make those reads and how to take, you know, one on one rush or a two on one rush and, you know, I think it's really hard to defend when you can play that way.
You know, it's really hard to defend. So I'd say the game's transition probably more so that way than than than anywhere else.
[Sean] (19:36 - 21:51)
One of the things that my current boss coach large and always talks about is it's finding a way to put yourself in a position to get the 51 49. So, especially at our level. It's, it's so tight.
Every single night, you know, every coach is working so hard. Every coach is watching tape. Everybody's recruiting in an extremely high level.
It's, it's very competitive. Right. And a lot of it comes down to 50 50 battles, whether that be throw a puck in the corner and it's a 50 50 battle between players, whether that's a face off.
Whether that's whether that's a power play, like how do you put yourself in a position to get that 51 49 advantage in all those situations and that could be in recruiting as well that could be in, in not just the game itself. But when you ask about, you know, from our dad. And obviously I had the opportunity to work for two guys that played for him.
One one coach that coach for him in red. So again, we're very lucky, you know, my dad passed when I was young, but the stories you get to hear you feel like you get to know him a little bit more than than most kids in my situation. And one of the things that I think he was really good at was understanding that there's, you can't coach every player the same way.
And I know Tyler and I talk about this a lot and it's something that we both believe in very strongly. But some players respond really well to being pushed hard, right, getting in their face screaming at them, holding them extremely, extremely accountable in a loud way. Some players need to be held accountable in a different way, you know, you don't want to talk to them in front, you know, or yell at them in front of their teammates, they don't respond well to that.
And that's probably something that has evolved in the era that we're in and the age that we coach. But it's something that Benny and Alfie would talk about quite a bit that our dad was very good at. And he was known as a very forward thinking coach back in the day.
I think there's probably more with him that is translatable or similar to today's style than a lot of coaches back then. And I think that's one of the things that brought him so much success in his tenure at Maine from from 84 to one.
[Jason] (21:54 - 22:30)
When you guys think about the caliber of the player who's successful at the levels that each of you are currently coaching and I understand that they're different levels but they're both. I mean, I mean, the caliber is just increasing across the board, right? It's like D three.
It's like D, you know, D one is the new pro and D three is the new D one. But what are the traits that you think are essential and and of those, which are the ones that are innate that either have you don't and which the ones that that can be developed.
[Sean] (22:31 - 26:01)
Yeah, I can take this one to start. So it's usually five things and I break them into two categories. What we look for as a staff and.
Actually, the the first three we call them the three ages is something that I took from Grant Standbrook, who was our dad's longtime assistant at the University of Maine, probably, probably the greatest recruiter in the history of college hockey, honestly, grant was incredible. And, and he had a very unique way of doing things, but the, the three things that Grant always looked for and I've tried to take from him were head, heart and hustle. And, and those are three things that, yeah, they can be worked on, but there's probably a bit of a glass ceiling on all of them.
So head would be hockey IQ. It's the ability to read the play, the ability to make that split second decision that might set you up for success on your next play. The ability not just to make a firm 20 foot pass, but make that five foot touch pass to space, right?
It's basically hockey IQ part is compete and at least for us. Every, every team that we look at, everybody that, that we're recruiting is competitive, right? You don't get to the WHO, you don't get to the United States hockey league if you're not a competitor.
But at the same time, there's still levels to that, right? And for us, like if you're not a top five top three competitor on the ice, especially at our program, you're just not going to cut it. It's very demanding.
And like you said, the level is continuing to increase. And then the last one is hustle and Tyler mentioned it and alluded to it a little bit, but it's where the game has been trending and is continuing to trend is. If you can't skate, it's going to be tough to cut it at any level, whether that's the division one or the division three level.
The game is so fast now that if you can't keep up, you could have the best stick. You could have an elite brain. You could be an elite competitor, but if you can't keep up, it's, it's going to be hard to make your way out there.
So we do quantify them to the three ages. It's something that when I go to every single game, whether it's a showcase and I'm trying to identify talent or whether it's talent that has already been identified and we're making a final decision on somebody. I write those three ages out and it's something that I rank every player on.
And then the last non-negotiable for us, Jason, is you got to be able to skate. Like I said, but you also got to be able to check. Hockey is all about being above the other team.
And if you're not above the other team, you're in for a long night, especially at our level. Like there's been times this year where we haven't been. There's been times this year where we have been.
And I don't care who you play. Like we played Providence a couple of weeks ago on, and we beat him five to one on a Saturday night and I'd attribute that to our guys commitment to stay above at all times. It's really hard to go through five guys, right?
And if you're staying on the right side consistently and you're checking, well, you're going to be a hard team to play against. And it really doesn't matter how much skill you have, you're going to give yourself a fighting chance at any given night. So those are the things that I would say we look for.
And then obviously on top of that, you're obviously looking for sticks. You're looking for skill. You still need flanks on the power play.
You still need to put the puck in the net. But at least for us, if you have those four or five things, you're going to be in a good spot. And you're going to definitely get considered in our program.
[Jason] (26:02 - 26:03)
What about you Tyler?
[Tyler] (26:04 - 29:20)
Yeah, I think I'll kind of allude to the statement you made right before Sean spoke, but the level of play has increased so much. And I'd say that even my first year at Colby College, which was seven years ago. There's players that we bring in, we recruit, we identify that during that time would be full scholarship Division 1 players.
And now with the new landscape, it's really hard to get to that place. So a lot of those players now will be playing Division 3. And so it's really up to the level of play for us.
And I know Sean for you guys now with the CHL expansion and that level has increased dramatically. But it's really hard to play college hockey at the NCAA level. You know, there's only, I think, roughly 80 Division 1 teams.
And I want to say 80 Division 9 or Division 3. That's it. So, you know, there's not many teams or many locker stalls to, you know, available to get into.
But in terms of, you know, what, you know, and everyone's kind of their own style, I would say. You know, some coaches really believe in having a big physical defensive team. Some believe in, you know, having a little bit of both in terms of speed, scoring ability, defensive minded.
For us, it's, it's, I've always lean pack on this quote or the statement that my grandfather would continuously bring up to us is you recruit offense, you teach defense. And he'd always bring up Duncan Keith as an example from Michigan State. But so that's a, that's a big philosophy for us.
You know, we want to, you know, guys that in our program will succeed or guys that do have a high offensive upside. You know, I believe strongly we can teach them how to play defense. You know, whether that's positioning, whether that's stick, whether that's, you know, head checks, little touch points that can improve that aspect of the game.
It's really hard to teach offense, natural offense. It's one of those things I think you kind of either at this point in your career have or you don't. You can develop some of it, but you've got to have intuition.
You've got to have, you know, different reads as Sean said to make that quick judgment call to maybe make a quick pass and put yourself in a position to get it back. So that's, that's one thing that we really believe in. But the skating is a really big one.
You know, at this level, again, it's, if you can't, and I'm not saying you have to be a polished skater by any means, but if you can't get up and down the sheet at a high enough level, it's going to be very, very difficult. Again, there's not much time and space coach. The teams are very well coached in today's world.
You're pre scouting. You're doing your own video coaches know what to expect from their opponent typically. So you really, the details and the fundamentals, you know, they've got to be there.
But skating is really important. And then the compete level. You know, I look back on there's a, there's a film called Out of the Woods.
That's a documentary on the 1993 University of Maine ice hockey team.
[Sean] (29:20 - 29:25)
How many times did we watch that one? Probably we could probably preside it by heart.
[Tyler] (29:31 - 29:40)
And he really talks about winning the one-on-one battles. Sean, I really like what you guys are doing there with the 51-49. I've never had it phrased that way, but I might still argue.
[Sean] (29:41 - 29:42)
Yeah, largely says it all the time. I like it too.
[Tyler] (29:43 - 31:08)
Yeah, I think I'm going to steal that one. You should. But the one-on-one battles, you know, how many one-on-one battles can you win throughout a 60 minute game?
And which guys have a knack for going into a wall battle on that one-on-one and coming out with the puck or making a player eliminating that player. So somebody else can come in and make the play. You know, and it goes back to that compete level.
You know, but we really look for a high offensive upside. It doesn't mean you have to have a point per game in the North American League or whatever league it might be, but, you know, it's got to be in there somewhere. You know, and, and, you know, I'll give you an example.
We've got a defense man right now who won a Robertson Cup last year in the North American League and his role with that team was very defensive. You know, he was on the penalty kill, didn't play much at all power play. He was on for big moments defensively.
And, but, you know, he's six foot four, has a great stick. He can skate and he wants to jump in the play. And now he's one of the better offensive defensive I'd say in our league.
Just kind of letting him play that style because he has the tangibles to do it, right? So that upside is there. It's hard to, it's hard to teach it, I think, like, like we said, but, yeah, I'd say that the compete level, the, those one-on-one battles and, and a good, a good upside offensively.
[Sean] (31:08 - 31:41)
Yeah, and just to build off that, Jason, like, that's, I guess, to me where the head hard and hustle piece comes in that Grant talks about, right? Like, you have to have hustle. You have to be able to skate to even, to even get to the battle, right?
To give yourself a chance in the battle to get that first touch potentially. You have to have the head to know how to make your reads in order to win that battle. Like, what side do you want to go on?
Do you want to go over the stick? Do you want to go under the stick? Do you want to go through his hands?
Things like that. And then obviously the compete factor speaks for itself. You have to outcompete the other player flat out to get that 51-49 advantage.
[Jason] (31:42 - 32:57)
Well, I've been jamming down some notes as you guys were talking just based on, like, things that it's, that this discussion's triggering for me on areas I want to dig into more. It's already a long list. I'm, I'm, I'm sorry you're excited to say depending on how you look at it.
But, but I want to go back to something you said before Tyler about it going from three forwards and two defenseman to, to a five-man game. What I've heard from some other coaches who have come on the show is that they're allergic to the word systems and they're much more interested in habits. So I want to ask you about that.
But before I do, I want to frame it by saying that it seems the game's a lot more transactional now where there's more churn. It's not the same crew who's together, right? And so, like, in a world where there's more fluidity and less cohesiveness, how do you, you know, in order for that five-man system.
I was going to use the word system, but then I'm leading, right? In order to use, you know, have those five men or women, you know, play as a unit, right? Like, how do you not rely on systems as a crutch?
So I'll stop there, but I'd be, I'd love for each of you guys just to, just to react to that.
[Tyler] (32:57 - 36:26)
One thing that has seemed to at least help our guys not be afraid to play that style is we really encourage aggressive mistakes. And what I mean by that is seeing a play and going for it, not being afraid of, you know, making an aggressive play. You know, we really try to discourage some of the passive plays or the caught in between reads.
If you're going to make your read go, you know, I'm not going to yell at you for making that play or that read. But when you get caught halfway or, you know, you decide, you know, I'm just going to kind of sit back, but you don't make that read quick, then, you know, it's hard because no one else can read off of you. So we really want to encourage here at least and then, you know, no better or worse than anybody else.
We just really encourage aggressive mistakes, whether it's in practice and games. You know, I think it allows players to get on, you know, feel uncomfortable and be good with that. And, you know, hockey is an extremely fluid game.
It's not football with a start and stop. It's not a smaller court like basketball. It's fluid.
And there's reads constantly. And you've got to be, you've got to be confident in the read you're making and going with it. You know, by the time players get here, I think they have a pretty good intuition on how to play the game.
And they've been playing it long enough at a high level and they need to trust themselves. You know, it's, you know, if I'm a, you know, if I'm a defenseman and I'm in our defensive zone and there's a guy in the corner who might be my responsibility, I want to close on him. You know, the quicker I can close on him, it allows the other four players to read what the situation is.
The longer it takes me, the more what ifs start to happen. And it's harder to play as a five person unit. But, you know, and I think that when you give players, you know, a quote on quote kind of green light to make those mistakes, that you start to see them kind of flourish.
And their ceilings grow and the joy. It's a fun way to play. I think if you ask any player who kind of plays in a system in a style that way, it's fun.
It's fun. Winter loss, you know what? It's a fun way to play.
And it's really fun to coach. You start to see some players just expand their horizons and maybe, you know, get to levels that they never really thought they could get to. Just because, hey, it's not, you know, it's not me doing this one job, it's, I'm going to do this play and I've got five guys who are going to do it with me.
And I know I can go here because I got four guys with me that know what to do. And it's read and react. You know, we do a lot of five on O things at practice.
With no routes, no guidelines, you got to figure it out. Defense been leading rushes from a breakout, you know, like, how do I, what are my reads? I don't, we don't ever tell them what they have to do in these situations.
They need to feel it. They need to see it. They need to be connected.
They need to communicate. And I think it's really hard to defend, but it's those aggressive mistakes and encouraging those. You know, I think really helps players kind of get outside that comfort zone and expand what they can do.
[Sean] (36:26 - 40:45)
Yeah, and then I really like that aggressive mistakes. We use that term as well, right? Like, you can't ever go half in.
If you go half in your screwed, you're out, you're already out. But this is a, this is a good one. Like a lot of things come to mind with, with that question.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind is you, you still, you want to be predictable. And predictability leads to speed. Everybody's trying to play fast.
Well, the more predictable your team is the faster you're going to be able to play. And I'll never forget it. It was, it was something that we're big on here.
But when I coached in Omaha with the Lancers in the USHL, Chad Cassidy would always say it. We want to be fast and predictable. That was our identity.
And I remember sitting there as a younger coach and, and being like, why, like, why would we want to be predictable? Do we want the other team to know what we're doing? Do we, you know, like that didn't necessarily click for me, but it does make sense.
If you think about it, if you are predictable to your teammates, your teammates can predict what you're going to do, take the routes that that Tyler was talking about. And that allows you to play that much faster. And, and like we've been talking about this whole time, the speed at which you play is massive, right?
And it's a, it's literally split seconds at our level, right? Those decisions are split seconds. And the more predictable you can make it, I think the better off you are at being able to play fast and, and outpace your opponent.
In terms of systems and getting to that, to that five man units. Like you said, Tyler, and to the question, Jason, I actually, I really like the way that coach large and instruction it out for us here at Alaska. So we break it down from the individual all the way to, as coach large and would say playing in fives.
That's, that's what the final, the final product would be. And the way it works for us is we have, so every, every team in the NCAA was allowed to have a new assistant coach. I think it was a couple years ago, they added that rule and teams have used that in a myriad of different ways, right?
Like some teams have a goalie coach, some teams have a full time recruiter. For us, the way that we've structured our staff is we've used that as a full time development coach. And, and Ryan Theros is our development coach.
And his job is specifically to work on individual player development with our guys. At the end of the day, the wins and losses are very important. And the banners that we put up for the championships that we've won at this program are massive, right?
But we also put up a banner for every guy that's made it to the National Hockey League that's played here. And those banners to us are just as important. We are a development league, especially at the Division I level where every single guy in our locker room.
At some point, whether it's now or in the past, had the ability to play Pro Hockey and would like to play Pro Hockey. And our job is to prepare them for that and, and help them not just get there, but stay there and climb while they're there. They don't have me on the ice.
They don't have Largi on the ice. They have him working on that individual piece. For some guys, it might be edge work.
They need to work on their skating. For some guys, it might be offensive blue line work, right? This is all dependent on the development plan that we made for them at the beginning of the year.
It's very, very individual based. From there, we take it into positional skills. So you take that next step.
Okay, if you're a defenseman, now they're working with Matt Curley, who works with our D. And they're working on playing with your partner, making those reads as a two man unit, right? And then for the forwards, that's predominantly with me, working as a three man unit, working on offensive zone concepts, sprinting to spots.
Again, it's all predicated on being predictable and giving yourself the best opportunity to get the puck and play with the puck. And then from there, you get into team practice where coach large and more takes over. And now we work on playing in fives, right?
And combining from the individual aspect to the positional aspect to playing as a five man unit, being predictable in that five man unit. And with that predictability allows you to play with a ton of speed, which again is just flat out required at this level.
[Jason] (40:45 - 41:48)
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned development. I mean, I read again and again, and you guys have mentioned it here, just the importance of recruiting. Now these new channels, these new pools of players have opened up, you know, the Canadian major juniors.
And so it's like the caliber of the players that you have access to and the quantity of players, no matter what the level, right? Because if the, if the, you know, WHO players are going to the division one, right? Well, then maybe the people that would have gone to the division one are going to division three, right?
So it's like it, it flows downhill. And I guess my question is, how do you then balance recruiting versus development and retention versus, you know, bringing in, and what is your obligation in terms of, in terms of, you know, fielding the best, it's like, how do you balance, if you want to feel the best team, again, how do you balance like the count of the town in the room with cohesiveness?
[Tyler] (41:48 - 42:04)
I'll go first on this one, Sean, just from the division three aspect. In terms of retention, you know, we're fortunate here where we have a rank on campus. It's a good academic school.
We're not really too ever worried about players transferring out.
[Jason] (42:05 - 42:11)
What about the other way around, though? Like, would you recruit over someone's head if there was someone that was like, meaningfully better for a role?
[Tyler] (42:11 - 45:03)
Well, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, our players know our program. We put the best players possible every game to win that game. Sometimes, you know, if a player needs to be scratched, we'll do it.
But at the end of the day, you've got to put yourself in a position to be in that conversation, to be in that lineup on Friday night. It doesn't matter if you're a senior captain, it doesn't matter if you're a first year. You know, that's the standard.
And are we perfect? No, we will make, we're going to make wrong calls on that. You know, nobody's perfect.
We're going to do our best to use our experiences to put the best 22 players on the lineup to win that game. So I think the cohesiveness, yeah, you know, players will be upset when they're not playing. That's human nature.
That's going to happen. And that's totally normal, right? How you respond to that, I think makes all the difference.
Are you, you know, if you don't play Friday or Saturday night this week, are you negative down in the dumps and not developing that next week in practice to maybe put yourself in the conversation? Are you understanding or having a meeting with the coach? You know, are you advocating for yourself and finding information why you weren't in that lineup?
Trying to be crystal clear on, hey, here's, here's the reasons why you weren't in. Here's what you can do to put yourself in that conversation. But at the end of the day, you need to do it.
You know, we have, you know, as coaches, we want to make you the best player possible. That's why we're here to be the best people and best player you can be. But without those conversations, it's really hard to make that happen because that's a two way street.
You know, we're going to do whatever we can to help you. But at the same token, you've got to help us help you. You know, we've got to talk through these things.
So I think with the talent level where it is today, it's just at our level, it's just gone up just dramatically. I mean, you look at the average age of the player has gone up dramatically. It's, it's really hard for a player who's 18, 19 years old to compete with, you know, 24, 25 year olds now.
You know, I think we had a class of 10 freshmen last year and all of them were 20 or 21 years old. I mean, I first year at Colby in a class of 10, we'd probably have three, you know, that were 20. The rest of them would be 17, 18, 19.
So that's changed pretty dramatically. But it's definitely up the level. And, and I think if you're consistent with your philosophy, if that's what you believe in and the players know that, then that that cohesiveness.
At least here, it hasn't really been, been an issue or players upset sometimes. Yes. But do they understand the why?
That's important.
[Jason] (45:03 - 45:15)
So one clarifying question. And then I want to switch to you, Sean, but with one tweak on the question that I'm asking, I'll explain. So, so for you Tyler, my only clarifying question is, do you recruit for open spots or do you recruit the best available talent?
[Tyler] (45:16 - 46:19)
A little bit of both. You know, so if you're losing, you know, if you have four seniors, you know, and say four forwards, you know, we're going to bring in four forwards. And maybe five, you know, maybe six, you know, it just all kind of depends on how things shape out.
You know, if a play, if we have a roster of 28 or a roster of 30 and, you know, a player that, you know, plays in the USHL, which has happened now on Division 3, is looking for a home in June or July. And, and is a good person competes and is interested in your school. Then if you want to win a national championship, you're crazy not to not to entertain that player or at least get to know them and look at them through a hard lens.
So, we want the best people and best players possible. You know, at the end of the day, you know, as Sean alluded to, yeah, a lot of it is the wins and losses and a lot of it for us is developing these young men into adulthood. But at the end of the day, I'm a competitor.
I want to win. And we're going to do what it takes to win.
[Jason] (46:19 - 47:24)
So Sean, I want to ask you the same question, but the one tweak is that I read, and I'm embarrassed to say that I admit, I read it on chat GPT, but I don't know if it's true. So if it isn't, then, then tell me otherwise, but when we added you in at the last minute, I was scrambling to prepare for this discussion. So I, I, yeah, but anyway, I read that, you know, you guys are, you know, can be a little more isolated, maybe a little more rigorous travel schedule, and that maybe in the past, there's been some issues around some, like, very skilled players who maybe were iffy about whether the lifestyle worked, but that maybe found out the hard way that it wouldn't, and it became kind of a nagging thing.
That isn't something you can control because that has nothing to do with your program. So I'm just interested in that same question that's how I just answered with the tweak around how you think about, you know, talent and skill and the three, you know, H's and all those things we talked about before. With, you know, like where does the fit with Alaskan life and not finding the travel schedule or being psyched for the travel schedule and all that, like, fit into that calculus.
[Sean] (47:25 - 53:34)
With every player that we recruit, we don't shy away from saying that. This is a hard place to play. The winners are long.
They're cold. They're dark up here in Fairbanks. But that being said, I think that it's actually quite similar to how things were an orno when our dad took over there.
I think if we're the most northern team in the country, Maine's probably the third most. And when our dad got there, they weren't necessarily on the map as much and it's a little bit similar for us in a changing era in college hockey. That being said, you will not find a more pure hockey environment than Fairbanks, Alaska.
It is, it's an incredible place to play. And while it comes with the challenges, maybe challenges, we see it as an advantage of what we would say is limited distractions as opposed to being in a place like Minneapolis or being in a place like Boston. That allows you to really dig in and work on your craft.
And what we tell every player that we recruit, and we don't say it to scare them, we say it because in the era of changing landscapes and the transfer portal and where retention is such a massive thing. If you don't absolutely love hockey and you are not 100% dedicated and committed to your craft, we're probably not the school for you. And that's fine.
But if you do, if you like being on the ice, if you like being in the weight room, if you like spending those extra minutes that add up to hours on your pregame routine, your postgame routine, your pre-practice routine, your recovery, things like that, then I think we're the perfect fit for you. Like I said, it is as pure of a hockey environment as you can find. Let's call it spade to spade.
There ain't much else going on up here other than the nooks. And for guys that like that and really have a strong commitment to develop, grow, and get better, I think we're the perfect fit for them. And that's kind of the challenge that we lay out to guys.
It is more of a challenge in the recruiting processes. We put it all on the table. We say it just like that.
And you get a pretty, you honestly get a pretty instant reaction from the kid when you say it. Some guys, most guys I would say that we're talking to, you can see them. You can see them as I go through that pitch.
They start to smile a little bit and their eyes light up and they're like, I'm the right kid for that. Like that is what I want. I want it to be all hockey all the time.
I want to play in the National Hockey League. And I know that a place like that can help me get there. And then there's other guys that might not be the right fit for them, right?
They want to be in a city. They want to have a little bit more to it than that. And that's fine.
And we don't have that. But at the end of the day, we're looking for hockey players and we're looking for serious ones and guys that are committed to growing, getting better, developing. And like Tyler said, ultimately helping us win games.
But ultimately, we want guys that we love them, but they also love us and they love it here and they're committed to that. The other thing I would say is in terms of Alaska, I didn't know anything about Fairbanks when I took this job. To me, the location had nothing to do with it.
It was the opportunity to work on an unbelievable staff that we had. Like Eric Largent, he was the youngest head coach in Division 1 when he was named actually just like our dad was when he was named the head coach at Maine. So I thought that was pretty cool.
In terms of tactics, like he is by far the most tactically gifted coach that I've ever worked for or honestly, probably even been around. And I've been around a lot of really good coaches just from our background. The opportunity to work for him was incredible.
Matt Curlies, our associate head coach, he also liked Tyler coached at the program, the NTDP. He's been a head coach for the last 10 years, whether that be at the Red Bull Academy over in Austria, whether that be the University of Alaska Anchorage at the Division 1 level or most recently, the Des Moines Buccaneers, where he was the head coach and GM at the United States Hockey League level. So for me, and then Ryan Theros, our development coach, his nap for coaching the individual and the individual skills that are required to get you to be able to play in fives is honestly second to none than what I've seen.
And I've been able to work with some of the better development coaches out there. So for me, it had to do with the staff and my ability to keep growing and learning and add to that buffet of coaches as I alluded to earlier. I guess where I'm getting to with this is, if those things are what you care about, then we are the perfect fit for you.
And the Alaska piece is more to the side. Now that being said, Alaska is a pretty darn cool place to be. Like last night I was driving home, whatever, eight, 39 o'clock after me and curls went to the sauna after a nice workout session.
And I called curls and I was like, are you looking at this? And we're just looking it up and the northern lights are just ripping. Like nothing you've ever seen before in your life.
It's like to the point where you walk outside at 10pm on a clear night in Fairbanks and it's like pinch me. I mean, I've sent you some pictures, Tyler, and I know I've FaceTimed you. But like that's something that's such a unique experience that not a lot of people get.
You know, we have the natural hot springs that are 30 minutes outside of town. Like there's no other team in the country that has that to offer the hunting, the fishing. If you're an outdoors type of kid, it's second to none, not just in the landscape of the NCAA, but quite literally in the world.
Like we do have a lot to offer outside the rink. That being said, when it's hockey season, when it's cold out, when it's dark out, for us, that's time to work. And we don't shy away from saying that.
And we want the guys that that, like I said, when I present that challenge to them, their eyes light up, they smile a little bit. And you can tell that they're very receptive to that challenge and can definitely see themselves playing and not just playing but flourishing in an environment like ours.
[Jason] (53:34 - 54:11)
I have a bunch more topics, way more than we're going to have time for us. I'm going to try to choose wisely here with the last few that we can fit in. But one of them is we've talked a lot about what kinds of players you guys look for and what kind of output you want to see in a game situation.
You know, like winning puck battles was an example of that, you know, aggressive risk is, you know, not going halfway, right? That's an example of that. I mean, I get that for some of this, there's no substitute for the eye test.
I'm curious. What do you guys track and what role does data play if any in informing some of that assessment?
[Tyler] (54:11 - 56:06)
So the data, you know, now that everyone has access, I think you're, again, naive to not use it. You know, for us, like, you know, one thing I could have mentioned earlier is consistency. That's a big one that is important, important to us here.
You know, I don't want to necessarily want to flip a coin and know which player is going to come off the bench, you know, in the second period up a goal. You know, at least have some consistency and the data can really help you find that. Whether that be time on ice, what situations is the kid playing in?
Is he, you know, the last minute of a playoff game? Is he on the ice or not? Does that coach with that program trust that player in high pressure situations?
How do they respond in those situations? What's the body language if that situation does not go their way? You know, are they down in the dumps or are they hungry to make up for it?
But the data itself, you know, we don't really have a metric, I would say, but we use it a lot for consistency. And, you know, a lot of it with, you know, when is the player playing? How many puck touches are they getting throughout the game, depending on their position?
Where are their shots coming from? What's the passing accuracy? So we'll do a dive into it.
It's not, you know, not something that in my, you know, for us would separate one player from another. But if you're not looking into it, it's just a tool that you're not using. So it's kind of one of those things that, you know, it's not the end all be all, it helps certainly.
But at the end of the day, you know, it's got to be the right person, you know, Sean, after that should feel like, I want to come to Alaska now. Let me suit up, man. That's where I want to be.
Head heart and hustle, T. Head heart and hustle. That's what we need.
[Jason] (56:07 - 56:14)
Well, they don't use data in Alaska. They just, you know, and they actually don't, they don't have a cafeteria. They just like eat what they hunt.
[Sean] (56:15 - 56:21)
One of the best dining halls in the world, one of the best dining halls in the world. We eat there twice a week. The sushi is top notch.
[Tyler] (56:22 - 56:39)
I just want to eat what I hunt. That'd be great. But so, yeah, it's a tool.
And whether you use it or not, I think that's up to you. But if you're not in today's world, then you're probably a step behind, I would think, to an extent. But that's, that's kind of how we view it.
[Speaker 4] (56:39 - 56:39)
Sean?
[Sean] (56:40 - 57:35)
I mean, it's funny, brings me to another grand chapter in quotes. And we call them redisms. He was full of them.
And he used to say statistics or analytics should be used like a drunk uses a lamppost for support, not illumination. And I do believe that. And that's, I would say how we use it here.
Like Tyler said, I think you'd be silly not to look at it. It's incredible. The things that we have at our disposal now that back in our father's day, they simply didn't have.
And it makes you, it requires you to do an even deeper dive and work that much harder again to get that 51 49 edge on the recruiting trail as I talked about. It definitely plays a factor. Like, you know, we use a company called SportLogic and they track all the tier one players out there and you can look at different things.
[Jason] (57:35 - 57:38)
We'll see if they're still called that, right? And they just get acquired.
[Sean] (57:38 - 57:43)
I think they did. Who was it huddle who acquired them? I can't remember.
[Jason] (57:43 - 57:52)
It was a company I never heard of, but apparently it's giant. It was like team. Anyways, I can find it, but it was team something.
[Sean] (57:53 - 59:55)
Yeah. But again, like having that at your disposal, I think it can be a blessing. I think it can also be a curse.
And that's why you want to use it for support, right? At the end of the day, teamwork loss. Teamwork team or CS team or spot them.
We actually use team work here at Alaska as well. But I think you can get a little too deep into it. You can get caught into it.
I don't think you want to be making decisions purely on analytics. Again, analytics can't measure how smart a player is. They can't measure how good of a skater they are.
They can't measure how competitive you are. But they can support what you see on the ice. At the end of the day, there's no substitute for going out and seeing a player live.
Like for us, recruiting such a massive deal, obviously, like another red quote, the team with the best players that gets off the bus is usually going to win the game, right? So it's absolutely massive. But there is no substitute for being in a rink.
And, you know, like, I mean, I was calling you like every day, Tyler. But I think I spent at one point three months straight on the road from early November to about mid January. Just going into ranks and watching games.
And we're really excited about the recruiting class we're bringing in. But there's not a subsidy. Like you can use sport logic and all of that.
But again, there's no substitute to physically being there, shaking a kid's hand, looking him in the eyes again, seeing how he reacts to our pitch, seeing how he reacts to that challenge. You can't find that on those platforms. Again, I think you can use those platforms to support what you see.
Or maybe even potentially bring light to something that you might not have noticed and go back and watch again. But at the end of the day, like, if you're not watching 10 games of a certain player, I don't think you can truly expect or know or have an idea of what you're getting at our level.
[Jason] (59:56 - 1:00:17)
What about from a teaching standpoint, when it comes to analytics or, I mean, video, especially, I mean, do you think there's meaningful stuff that players can learn off the ice? And I don't mean off the ice like in the gym or doing hill sprints or whatever, but off the ice like in a classroom setting or, you know, in front of the laptop.
[Sean] (1:00:17 - 1:04:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Actually, another thing that I believe our dad started, and I know a lot of guys in college hockey have taken this. We did it when I was at Maine. I've taken it everywhere I've ever been, whether that's Omaha, UNE, or Bowdoin most recently.
And then obviously here is, it's simple. It's scoring chances and teaching through scoring chances. So for us, like, you know, I'll go through at the end of every game and I track every scoring chance.
Now, obviously that is subjective. What I see as a scoring chance might be different than what Tyler sees as a scoring chance. And we could and we have spent legitimately hours debating what quantifies as a scoring chance, right?
To every person, every coach, it's different. But ultimately you go through the game, you cut up the scoring chances. And if it's a scoring chance for you give a chance at attribution to that.
So if Tyler, you know, struck on the weak side as a defenseman, got a pass, and then laid another pass to you, Jason back door, and you didn't finish, but you got a great opportunity. We want that to be calculated. And again, that's something that in, in that sport logic, they kind of do, but they don't do it quite to that level.
So we attribute, you guys would both get credit for that scoring chance. And the same, and well, the other three guys in the ice might not because they didn't directly contribute to that chance, whereas the same thing happens with chances against. So what was the breakdown that led to our team giving up a chance is a chance against.
You know, it might be, you know, bone head Tyler dove in as F three, and we gave up a three on two and, and they got a scoring chance off the rush. Well, she would get a chance against what we do from there is we make a video of all the scoring chances. We make a write up.
So Tyler, you cannot dive in as F three. On the, on the track, you need to sweep, get your toes south, and which would give us an even number rush and allow our defenseman to kill that play. We use that as a teaching tool here.
And again, it's, it's subjective. And, and I think it's good because we can use the terminology that's used in our room all the time. But after every game, we send that video out to the guys, and then we send a sheet with your chances plus minus.
And I know if you have Benny on here, he calls it the wall. She plus minus because it was something that our dad was so big on. But it's a really good teaching tool.
It's also a really good tool for us. That's almost in house analytics. That allows us to use those analytics in a way that fits to our program, right, and teaching the way that fits to our program that a baseline model like in stat like sport logic don't quite have because they're not within our program.
And it also, it's a good motivator for our guys, right? Like, we post that chances sheet in the locker room. I can tell you right now you do not want to be minus four on the chances sheet.
It's not a good feeling. And it quite honestly could and probably would lead to you being brought out of the lineup. It's something that that we take super seriously.
But it's a really good teaching tool. It reinforces the good habits in offensively and chances for whether that be winning a 50 50 battle that results in a chance. Executing on a high level play off the rush that leads to a chance, but it also teaches you defensively what's required.
Hey, you weren't above here. You didn't stay above your check. And that's what allowed a three on two rush against.
And that's what ultimately led to a scoring chance. Hey, if you're a defenseman, you didn't strike early enough. You didn't kill that play when you had an opportunity to add our defensive blue line.
You let them get zone entry and ultimately that impacted and a lot and resulted in a scoring chance. So it's a little bit of in-house analytics that is really good for our guys that they can use to learn and continue to grow their game.
[Jason] (1:04:11 - 1:05:18)
One other theme I wanted to make sure to talk about is that as I've made the rounds. Some people have said that that as the focus is on individual skills and as the teams are. You know, there's, there's, there's, you know, they don't stick together.
There's more turnover and, and as players have a bunch of handlers around them right that. That the skill level has never been higher, but that IQ is, is, is in the dumps, right? Other people have said, actually, I don't think that's true.
It's just that as the game's gotten so much faster, like, you know, IQ can't keep up. So it's not necessarily, it's, it's not specific. The game's too fast.
It's just like, like, like everything's happening too fast and there's, and there's not enough time for, for decision making. I'm curious of a couple things for each of you guys. One is how do you think about the state of IQ and to, to the extent or to can it be taught and to the extent that it can be taught?
What is the most effective way to teach it?
[Tyler] (1:05:19 - 1:09:39)
Yeah, I think that, you know, it's, again, it's, you know, I can't really speak on what it was 30 years ago versus today, but, you know, there's players that see the ice exceptionally well, and there's players that might struggle. You know, I think a lot of it probably depends on, you know, who, who was a big part of your development at a young age. You know, our brother Travis, he had a coach in Ron Gay for about five, six years in Lansing, Michigan.
And our grandfather was really close with them and, and, you know, took a group of, you know, 1993 birth year players that, you know, at the time, you know, weren't very high level. And I want to say six or seven and then play college hockey by the end of it, you know, and a handful of Division I. So I think having the right person teaching at that, at that age where you're really learning and your sponge can make all the difference in the world.
You know, putting you in situations where you have to make a read, you know, not necessarily just stick handling through seven cones going in and taking a shot one on. I think that's, you need to do those things because you need to build the skill, but how are you building the read? So I think putting, you know, I would say at that young age where you're developing or, and you know, whatever age that might be, being in those situations that you have to make reads along with building the skill probably allows you to to improve that IQ.
You know, I think if you add in an uncomfortable situation or a read, you have to make, you know, it's muscle memory, you start making those reads. You know, we, we, I just talked on Monday with our group about the Patriot Super Bowl when Malcolm Butler scored the, had the interception to win the Super Bowl. And, and he got interviewed and they talked about that they worked on that play once and it was about a month before that happened, but it was muscle memory.
He understood where he needed to be in that coverage and made a big play at the time. So, you know, getting those reads, being in those situations, building the skill. I mean, I think I've had a couple people actually in the past probably year or so talk about how skills coaches are ruining the game.
Like, you couldn't be more wrong with that statement, like more wrong. You need to build skill. You know, if you, if you can't, if you don't have hands to handle a puck or your edges aren't strong or, you know, you're not in physically good shape or.
You know, you don't have the, the fast, which muscles needed at, at the college level, then, you know, you're going to struggle. Right. So you need to build those skills.
But then I think that what goes along with it is having to make reads and understanding, you know, outlets and, and, you know, when to, when to puck protect maybe with your, you know, after a shoulder check to your left side versus your right side where the pressure is coming from. Where's the, where, you know, instead of just dumping the puck to dump it, where should I place this puck, smart puck, puck placement, you know, those types of situations. You know, those, I think those can be taught, you know, and, and whether you can teach them, you can teach them in college for sure.
But, you know, I think you're going to go so far with that versus at that youth age, you know, while you're really developing your body's changing and you're starting to, you know, probably play at levels that will start to separate you a little bit. From, from maybe the rest of your peers. You know, so I think you got to, you know, there's no way in, no way in heck that the skills coaches are ruining hockey.
Like, I don't think that's the case. I think maybe there's some that might be in it for the wrong reasons. If I'm being frank, I just want to make a quick buck.
But if you get the right person who, who understands the development piece and, and wants to invest in helping these young people, you know, get better, then, then, yeah, you can definitely teach IQ. For sure, you know, people, you know, if you're not just born with it, are you born with good genetics? Could be.
Are you born around the game? Could be. But you're not just instantly born with a high hockey IQ that needs to be developed.
You know, and, and again, that nature versus nurture question, you know, what's your environment? You know, what, who's, what coaches you around? What people are you around?
You know, so it plays a huge part and it can definitely be developed.
[Sean] (1:09:39 - 1:11:23)
I guess first time, see, I couldn't agree with you more on the skill coaches part. Like, they, I think some people have that moniker about them and, and, and I don't think it's right. If you have the right skills coach that's developing you the right way, you're in a really good spot and you definitely can improve that IQ.
I would say that I do think there is a bit of a glass ceiling on it. I don't think you can, you can go from being. Yeah, I don't think you can get everybody to be Wayne Gretzky level, right?
Like that's, it's, it's, that's impossible, but you can improve on it and you can improve on it with work. One of the things our associate head coach Matt curly always says is, I can't stand stupid. Like, there's no time for that.
If there's no, there's no time for stupid decisions. If, if you think about it hockey is a game where any given player on any given night might be making 150 different reads in 15 minutes of waste time. And what's your percentage on correctness on those reads?
Basically, and I think that is a way to quantify what IQ would be or what we as coaches consider hockey IQ to be. I absolutely think it's something that can be worked on. I actually, it's funny.
You mentioned it. I, I worked for a summer camp the past few years with with a guy by the name of Graham Townsend. He was the skills and development coach for the San Jose Sharks.
He worked with the Maple Leafs. He had a long track record in the National Hockey League played in the NHL.
[Jason] (1:11:23 - 1:11:24)
Is he based here in Massachusetts?
[Sean] (1:11:24 - 1:13:38)
He has camps in Massachusetts. I believe he's still in Maine, but he does camps all over Townsend hockey school. There's a little plug for you, grammar.
It's, it's an unbelievable spot, but they do things the right way as Tyler would say. Like, and one of our camps specifically was called hockey IQ camp. And I was the one who ran it and it was a lot of work on video.
It was a lot of work on those reads. One of the terms that that coach Largen uses here all the time is who has the ability to find the white ice, right? When you're playing in fives, there is not a lot of ice out there.
But there is always white ice somewhere and that would go into the deposit versus dump part that Tyler just talked about. Like, are you dumping the puck rate to their defense men or rate to their goalie in a spot where that team can easily break it out? Or are you depositing the puck to the white ice where they actually have to go and get it?
And now our team has time to get a change, establish our forecheck, right? Are you setting your teammates up for success? Those are the reads that you need to be able to make to not just survive, but to thrive at our level.
And I do think it's something that can be taught. But one of the other things that we talk about all the time here is like, are you hearing me or are you listening? And there is a big difference.
There's a big difference between Malcolm Butler the months before the Super Bowl going through that drill one time, doing it for the rep. The coach explains it to a T right before it happens. It's in a, it's in an environment where there's no crowd, no fans.
It's not a minute left in the Super Bowl, right? It's just a rep. But Malcolm was clearly listening in that case.
And he took that and he was prepared for it, whatever, a month later. And he was able to harness that in the biggest moment of his career. Let's call a spade a spade of anybody's career.
So there is a big difference between that. And I do think that would be the mark of a smart player, right? Like he was able to take that one little minute detail from a month ago.
Not just take it and repeat it 10 minutes after it was explained, but hold on to that absorb it and take it with him when it mattered the most. That would be a great example of what I would consider a high IQ player.
[Jason] (1:13:38 - 1:15:35)
I have time for one last question that I really do need to go do school pickup and not leave my kids stranded. But yeah, I mean, it is, but I would love to actually keep talking because there's a lot we didn't cover. But the question I want to end with is we've talked about how much harder the path is getting, how much more competitive it's getting, how much higher the skill level is, how the age is getting older.
And you have as more players fighting for, you know, like the number of spots hasn't kept up with the growth of the game at the youth level, right? But given all of that, you can see then why there's pressure on families to specialize their kid earlier and earlier, right? Especially because like, you know, if you play in the brick, you get kind of like branded a brick kid and then if you're like a brick kid, then you might get access to the best, you know, spring teams and whatever it is, it's like success, we get success, right?
And optics matter for better or for worse, right? But the other side of that is it's leading to like burnout, overuse injuries, you know, picking winners early, meaning that kids that would have been late bloomers like don't ever get there because they get discouraged and leave the sport, right? And so, on the one hand, it's like you can see why people are doing it, but on the other, it's like there's this narrative of like, let the kid be kids, like it should just be for joy the past so hard you shouldn't even think about it, but it's like, yeah, but at the same time, like you have Kobe Bryant in your ear talking about like, you know, every extra rep you do compounds over time and so like, get in the gym and shoot pups and do, right?
And it's like, as a parent, like, forget about what, I mean, yeah, obviously what the kid wants matters, but also like, you can't let like an eight-year-old have full agency, right? Like, you got to be a parent and like, give them some guy that's instructor, right? So it's like, think to the parents for a minute, like, how do you navigate that?
[Tyler] (1:15:36 - 1:16:44)
It's hard for me to, and both of us to speak, because we don't have kids yet. So I can't put myself into parents' shoes that side of it, but what you can say is I believe that, you know, there's a difference between forcing your child to do these things, because you think it's good for them, or does the child want to do it, right? Do they want to be at the rink all the time?
Do they want to shoot a hundred pucks after practice? Do they want to, you know, do an off-ice shooting circuit, stick handling circuit? Are they in the garage on Sunday, you know, to stick handling pucks, you know, there's a passion that I think some people have and some don't.
Our brother Travis had that passion. You know, he lived at the rink. We lived a mile away from it, so made it pretty easy.
But he was there from, you know, he'd skip school sometimes in high school and just go to the rink. You know, whether that's good or not, who the heck knows, but, you know, all academic big 10, right? That's where he was.
[Jason] (1:16:45 - 1:16:47)
He's not even here to defend himself, John.
[Tyler] (1:16:48 - 1:19:35)
Yeah, I know. I know. But I, you know, that's, you know, if we're at home, he's just stick handling, he's shooting.
And I think some people have that and just some don't. You know, I didn't quite at that point have that same drive he did. You know, just didn't.
And that, I think that is what can separate some people from, you know, being that quote-unquote late bloomer. You know, whether you play at 13 years old on the Banum Tier 1 Triple A team from, I don't know, somewhere in Boston, or you're on, you know, maybe a Tier 2 team. If you have that passion and you have some resources and good coaches around you, you know, I think you can totally make it.
But, you know, I don't know if it's a good idea to, you know, force, you know, your little Johnny or Jimmy or Susie to have to shoot, you know, 300 pucks after their practice, because you think it's good for them. You know, so I think there's an inner passion that a lot of players who make it just genuinely have that love for the game and that joy, that passion, that that's going to help them, you know, as they get older. It's definitely kind of a chaotic environment.
Like that's, you know, I think the powers of beer battling that, you know, I look at how many junior hockey programs, whether it's Tier 1, 2 or 3 that are in the country, and it's got to be near 500. You know, and summer play to play, pay to play, some aren't. And, you know, generally it's a problem.
Like it is a problem. When we have 250 junior hockey teams or 200 junior hockey teams where when you look at it, not one player has played NCAA hockey in that program's history, yet they're marketing it to be a development league to the NCAA. And the people are paying for it.
They're paying $30,000 a year for it. That's a problem. And I don't know what the solution is.
I don't know if anybody does. I don't know if there is a solution. But, you know, I think as you navigate, I've always tried to, you know, we get maybe high schoolers will sometimes reach out to us, you know, are we recruiting them out of high school?
You know, probably not, you know, where the game is today. But some piece of advice I always try to share is, you know, try to get a good inner circle of people you trust. Whether that be former coaches that you've played, you know, played under or, you know, teammates that have gone on and played it.
Program XYZ, you know, a good family advisor that's in it for the right reasons.
[Jason] (1:19:35 - 1:19:39)
I was going to joke before you said that, like an advisor you find on the internet. Well, yeah.
[Tyler] (1:19:39 - 1:20:38)
Well, one that's in it for the right reasons. And it's Sean, Sean, Sean can attest to this just as much as anybody. There are agents who are definitely in it for the right reasons or advisors and there's some that aren't.
And it's very easy as a coach to figure out quickly which ones are in it for the right reasons, which ones aren't. Very easy. And but finding someone that, yeah, it's generally the right reasons or just reaching out and talking to people who have maybe gone through it themselves and advice they have, but trying to establish that circle of people you trust and it can help guide you.
That have no, maybe no stake in the game. That just want to help you develop. And, you know, so, you know, I don't know if there's a right or wrong or if I even answered your question, but it's, you know, it's definitely a, it's a tangled weapon.
It's not easy. But, you know, it's, it's, that's hockey. Nothing in hockey is easy.
It's different than any sport.
[Sean] (1:20:38 - 1:21:21)
That's for sure. That's for sure. Yeah, Jason.
It is a really good question. And I don't mean for this to sound like a cop out if it does, but there really is no right answer. Like, for some kids.
The best development for them is to play three or four sports growing up and build that athleticism. And, you know, there's a lot that you can take from soccer, for example, that you can take in hockey. You're playing away from the ball.
You're playing away from the pot, things like that, that you do soak and absorb while you're growing up before you eventually make the decision to go full time.
[Jason] (1:21:21 - 1:21:31)
I listened to a podcast this week with Rick Celebrini, who says the same thing, but that his boys got a ton from playing soccer, but they applied to their pocketers.
[Tyler] (1:21:31 - 1:21:58)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Look at a player like Mason West.
You know, and a stud quarterback here in a Dinah, Minnesota, one of the best in the state and an exceptional hockey player, obviously. And I'm sure there's lots of things from being quarterback that help you make your reads in hockey. We talked about the development, right?
So I'm sure those checkoffs and those outlets and those, you know, those quick passes that it can't not translate.
[Jason] (1:21:59 - 1:22:01)
But you're about to say, Sean, you're about to say, but for others.
[Sean] (1:22:02 - 1:24:39)
Well, but for, right. I mean, for lacrosse and as well, lacrosse would be another one. Like, if you can be a defender in lacrosse, you know, the footwork, the body positioning, things like that.
And then the 50-50 battles, going, being able to go for a ground ball, like, there's nothing more similar than going for a 50-50 puck than 50-50 ground ball on lacrosse or 50-50 ball on soccer. Right. So they do teach you how to handle yourself in those situations and get that 51-49.
But for some other guys, like Tyler talked about, like our brother Travis, like, he wasn't, he didn't play many other sports. It was all hockey all the time. And he needed every bit of it.
He was the type of player that needed it. He wasn't the strongest skater. He had a brain.
He had compete. He had a stick. But skating was something that Travis always struggled with growing up.
And if he didn't spend all that time with Ron Gay working specifically on his edge work, specifically on his skating, Travis wouldn't have made it. He just wouldn't have. He had to.
Like, he was the type of player that had to. Whereas a guy like Mason West, maybe a little bit more athletic, has the luxury and the ability to be able to play football at a high level longer than most. And like Tyler said, like, put himself in a position to make other reads that will help you ultimately make reads in hockey.
So it is a bit of a cop-out. But there's no player or coach for that matters. Path is going to be the same.
And there is no right path for anybody. It's what's right for you. And then back to the advisor point.
I think that's why it's so important that you do have people that you trust. That not only you trust, but people that know you in your corner, right? Like what you said, Jason, about, you know, the advisor that just emailed you and he watched three games on film.
And like that guy isn't looked in the eyes. That guy isn't shaking your hand. That guy isn't spending any meaningful time with you.
If you don't know the player, like if you didn't know Travis inside and out and knew that that's what required, what was needed for him to get to Michigan State to get to a very good pro career. You, you're not equipped to advise him to spend all those extra time specifically on skating. So I guess the biggest thing with the advisor stuff is like, again, you need someone that you can trust, but someone that you have a relationship with that knows about you that that truly does care about you.
And I guess that would be the quantification of being in it for the right reasons.
[Jason] (1:24:40 - 1:24:53)
Well, I, I really enjoyed this. I feel like we could have done another whole episode on tactics and, and, you know, no specific stuff and, and, um, gusties. You got it.
[Speaker 4] (1:24:53 - 1:24:54)
I don't know. Yeah.
[Jason] (1:24:55 - 1:24:59)
I'm not taking aggressive risk with, with my pronunciation.
[Tyler] (1:25:00 - 1:25:07)
It's okay. I still do this. I'm not quite sure.
I'm not quite sure what a gusty is yet. I'm still learning that.
[Jason] (1:25:07 - 1:25:10)
I don't know what an enough is either, but it sounds cool. Yeah.
[Sean] (1:25:10 - 1:25:15)
Gusty is a gusty is a raining my chance for the guys first place right now in the Mayak time.
[Tyler] (1:25:15 - 1:25:23)
Just drop a second, but we're playing first on Friday. So we'll take it right back. Big weekend for the gusties.
Yeah, big weekend indeed.
[Jason] (1:25:23 - 1:25:44)
And I got, you know, I asked some other guests to give me some questions for you guys and I had some great ones that came up with better more team specific, but we just didn't have time. So is there, yes, maybe we'll do it. You know, maybe there'll be a sequel at some point.
But is there anything I didn't ask you today that you wish I did or any parting words that you'd like to leave with listeners on either of you or both of you.
[Tyler] (1:25:44 - 1:26:16)
No, again, thanks for having us. You know, you've, I really enjoy listening to the podcast. You've had some great coaches and great hockey people on them.
And, you know, keep doing it. I think at the end of the day, just what we're so fortunate to work in this game and in this hockey network and community and, you know, just, you know, when you do what you love, it's, it's not a job. It's, it's, it's a passion and it's just so lucky and fortunate to feel a lot of gratitude to work in this game.
[Sean] (1:26:17 - 1:27:26)
100% 100% it's you feel very lucky and grateful every day. I mean, Tyler said it earlier in the episode, but I literally could not imagine doing anything else other than this haven't worked today in my life yet and I, and I don't plan to. And then just, you know, one other thing I think you talked about it a lot and if we had more time, we could have touched on it, but with the changing landscape and, and how hard it is to get to this level, you know, the one piece of advice that I would have is, it's similar to the reads in a game, like, it does, it's getting so tight, especially at the division one level and now the division three level that it's quite literally like every decision you make matters. Right. Are you going to have the right crispy treat or you're going to have a piece of cantaloupe.
It really does come down to that and, and it's the guys that are truly dedicated to that as they grow as they get older. Again, I keep saying it. I've probably said it 50 times this episode, but that is the 51 49 that's required for you to, to not just get here, but to stay here to grow here to move on from here and eventually get to professional hockey and climb the ranks there as well.
Yeah.
[Jason] (1:27:27 - 1:28:24)
No, these are, I mean, my son's only 13, but, and his little sister's only 10. So it's like, we've got some time, but the discussions that I've, you know, started with him having with him as he's navigating his path. It's like, Hey, like, when you look at these higher levels bugs, like, like, you can't just look and say like, Oh, like, I could blend in there like, blending in is not enough.
Like, you need to bring something to the table and the higher the level you play, the less difference there is between you and all the other people that are vying for that seat. And so like, that's why the grind matters. And it's like just micro improvements across all the different areas of your game, wherever you can, that then compound, right?
So now I sound like that Kobe Ryan clip, but it doesn't listen to me anyway, so it doesn't matter what I sound like. Yeah. Well, thanks guys.
Yeah, I really enjoyed this. It's an honor to spend time with you and to learn from you. And I wish you each best of luck in your fairly new, but I have no doubt will be quite successful endeavors.
And I look forward to watching your progress as coaches, because it's going to some exciting places. I know it for sure.
[Tyler] (1:28:24 - 1:28:30)
Thanks, Jason. And good luck to you and your son, your daughter as well. And really enjoyed this.
So thanks for having us on.
[Jason] (1:28:31 - 1:28:43)
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for listening to Puck Academy.
If you enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with someone serious about their game. See you next week.