In this episode of 'The Next, Next,' host Jason Jacobs delves into the hockey and life journey of Hunter Bishop, a former professional hockey player and current founder of Hunter Bishop Hockey. Bishop shares his path from playing junior and college hockey to signing an NHL contract with the Montreal Canadians, playing several years in the pros, and eventually retiring to focus on player development. The episode covers Bishop’s transition from playing to coaching, his philosophies on multi-sport participation, the importance of fun in hockey, and the life lessons learned through the sport. The conversation also explores the potential of video analysis in player development and the challenges players face in transitioning out of the game. Bishop emphasizes the significance of passion and maintaining a balance between optimizing for sports and life.
In this episode of 'The Next Next,' host Jason Jacobs delves into the complexities of athlete development through a conversation with former professional hockey player Hunter Bishop. Hunter discusses his unique journey from playing in junior leagues to founding Hunter Bishop Hockey, which offers development programs for players of all ages. The discussion touches on the importance of maintaining passion for the game, the balance between specialized and translatable skills, and the role of video analysis in player development. Hunter also reflects on his own career decisions, such as leaving the University of North Dakota to return to junior hockey, and provides advice for both aspiring athletes and their parents on navigating the challenging path to professional sports while also preparing for life beyond the rink.
00:00 Introduction to the Show and Host
00:21 Guest Introduction: Hunter Bishop's Hockey Journey
01:29 Hunter's Early Career and College Decisions
05:06 Hunter Bishop Hockey: From Player to Coach
10:12 The Importance of Multi-Sport Athletes
15:19 Balancing Passion and Structure in Player Development
21:34 The Decision to Leave North Dakota
27:42 Navigating High School and Junior Hockey Decisions
28:39 Balancing Hockey Dreams with Life Goals
29:12 The Role of Hockey in Personal Development
31:28 Transitioning Out of Professional Hockey
33:19 Building a Post-Hockey Career
37:15 The Importance of Skill Development in Hockey
42:24 Leveraging Video for Player Development
52:31 Future of Player Development and Technology
56:12 Final Thoughts and Parting Words
Hunter Bishop
[00:00:00]
Jason Jacobs: Welcome to the next. Next. I'm the host, Jason Jacobs. This shows sort through the nuances of athlete development through the lenses of a dad who's trying to sort through those nuances with my own kids, and also as an entrepreneur who's in the early stages of building my next company, which is a new kind of athlete development company starting in hockey.
Today's guest is Hunter Bishop. Hunter, , played his junior and college career in the Fairbanks Ice Dogs, the Cedar Rapids Rough Riders. Uh, he had a great journey at the Vernon Vipers in the BCHL, where he tallied 97 points in the 2007 2008 season, and held the franchise record for goals in a season and all time goals. For college, he went to the University of North Dakota to play. Got four games in, decided the fruit wasn't ripe yet, and went back to juniors. Then he ultimately landed at Ohio State where he had a couple of good years that culminated in signing [00:01:00] an entry level NHL contract with the Montreal Canadians. In 2010, he went on to play across multiple leagues in the A HL, in the ECHL and in Europe.
And, , post his playing career and coaching. He retired in 2019, settled in Charleston, South Carolina, and founded Hunter Bishop Hockey, where he offers hockey camps and player development programs, both for little guys and girls all the way through training a bunch of pro players, including some well-known ones.
We have a great discussion in this episode about. Hunter's hockey path. And, and I'll tell you, this guy is all heart. He's got a really inspiring story. , We also talk about his thoughts on the player development path, both his own, but also his advice for others that are coming up the ranks today. He talks about how the game has changed and his philosophies on player development and, and we also just talk generally about how to balance.
Optimizing for hockey, which is a long [00:02:00] and grueling road with optimizing for life and, and where those, , were aligned in Hunter's case and, and where they ultimately diverged, at least from a playing standpoint. At any rate, really wonderful discussion. Grateful to Hunter for coming on the show.
Hunter, welcome.
Hunter Bishop: All right. Thanks for having me. I'm ready to roll.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, I'm psyched. And I have to say, so I've known Kevin McCoy a long time. So not in a hockey capacity. And then as I've my hockey side has gotten reawakened as my kids gotten more into it, and now I'm even moving into it professionally then I uncovered that Kevin had taken the same pill.
And and yeah, so we did a great episode and then he's Hey, you gotta talk to Hunter. He's awesome. And I didn't know you from a hole in the wall. 'Cause I don't know a lot of, my info and hockey's dated decades, but, but I heard a podcast preparing for this. We had a great chat, first of all offline, and then I listened to a podcast you did with the Viper's broadcaster guy back in, I think it was 2020.[00:03:00]
Your story's so awesome.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, it's it is a wild one, but, it's cliche to say the hockey wor the world is small. Obviously the hockey world's extremely small, and I'm sure you and I could go round and around and find a hundred people that we mutually know in the
Jason Jacobs: we're already uncovering it, right? Because I recorded with Freddy Meyer and then I mentioned to you I was recording with Freddy Meyer and you're like, he coached me in the AHL.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah. It was his first year. He was fresh outta the game. Just an incredible human being just so upbeat and energetic like that as a player. There's nothing better than having a guy like that come in who just gives you everything and is excited and fresh outta the game, like his perspective was so raw.
I I loved having Freddy as a coach.
Jason Jacobs: And I think, we'll get into it, but I think I think what struck me about your episode, it wasn't, yeah, like the hockey story is, long and twisted and gripping and all that, but just, there's just a lot of life packed in there too. And and I think it's just a good reminder [00:04:00] that, it's easy to to just get especially as a hockey dad, with my first one through the shoot and only one 'cause my, his little sister doesn't play.
You can lose perspective and. And I think keeping the perspective that, while hockey can be super important, that that, that life is most important. I think is just a good reminder for everybody.
Hunter Bishop: Yep. A hundred percent. I think every I look back at my path and I, I call it unique. There's probably a, a thousand stories like mine, but I feel like everybody's story is. Is so different in how they came up in the game and what it's done for them. But, it's, I go back through your podcast and it's fun to hear the similarities and perspective after the game, and some of the approaches.
And, even just listening to Freddy's, like his approach is spot on to how he coached, right? Just enthusiasm and building the passion. So it's fun. It's fun to hear, from different people, which I think is really cool what you're doing here.
Jason Jacobs: I'm having a lot of [00:05:00] fun and I'm learning a lot too. And speaking of maybe we should get into some of your journey. So I wanna. I want to hear the hockey story, but before we even do to, just kind of frame for listeners, what're up to you today with Hunter Bishop Hockey?
Hunter Bishop: So I, I guess that, hopefully I don't ruin your flow here, but I'll go back to the beginning. I
Jason Jacobs: That's fine. Okay,
Hunter Bishop: I'll go I'll go back to the beginning 'cause it's, I think it's important for me, what I grew up doing, obviously I love the game, but there's a couple people that I got involved with at 14, 15 years old that kind of shaped what I do today.
I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska and it was about 75,000 people. So I wouldn't say it's a small town for Alaska. It's, it's one of the largest, but, the closest teams were six hours away in Anchorage. A little bit of a unique hockey market in that sense. But old school, my dad, he played hockey.
He, he loved the game he played, he called it semi-pro, but I think it was a glorified beer league in Alaska. [00:06:00] But he just loved the game. Had me on the bench when I was probably three,
Jason Jacobs: He I heard I heard on that other show he coached you all the way through, right?
Hunter Bishop: He coached me all the way through, took me from the beginning. He loved the skating component. He drove that one hard. It was, he was all about power skating. And we had an another guy that took my age group. My dad followed us up, followed me all the way up to ban him. But I had another guy named Roger McKennan who had coached professionally and he ended up getting my age group, and he took us all the way through, which obviously had a giant impact, I think, on, on my development, growing up in Fairbanks.
But yeah, dad, dad was there from the beginning. I can remember being in the locker room with the boys after a Sunday night, men's league skate. So I think that's where kind of the love of the game grew. I go back and, ask my dad, did I always know it was hockey?
And he said, yeah, from the beginning it was, it's all I wanted to do. Of course, Alaska's frozen nine months a year, so there's not a whole lot of other [00:07:00] sports going on anyway, hockey's kind of the game and the sport there. But yeah, it was hockey from the start. Of course, I played other sports, but just loved the game from an early age.
And when I was when I was about 13, maybe 12, 13 there's a camp called Turcotte Stickhandling Camp, and they came to Alaska. They did the Alaska swing. And, I did the camps every summer. And it was all about skill and hands and just they had a great formula for a Monday through Friday and as a player you could see how much better your hands got, in, in a five day span.
Just repetitive motion and everything was broken down. And the structure of it, I just absolutely loved. It was my favorite camp growing up. And then when I was about, 14. I, I started working in the camp. He said, Hey, maybe you should start working the camp. You're a little too old to be in the camp.
A lot of younger players. So I worked with Turcott Al and Jeff for a couple years. And then when I was 17, Jeff called me and [00:08:00] said, Hey, I'm not coming this year. We want you to run 'em. And, I'd worked a couple camps and, but I had no idea what I was doing running one myself.
So they threw me to the fire. I ran three camps, Wasilla, Anchorage, and Fairbanks. And just, that was my start in player development, I guess as a 17-year-old, I'm working with younger guys. I'm holding parent meetings and I just loved it, hi. I hired my buddies who were playing juniors.
I, hi, I had my sister working with me and we just drove around. Alaska
Jason Jacobs: who played D one Hockey Yourself.
Hunter Bishop: My sister played at Ohio State at the same time. It was just a really neat transition into kind of the coaching side of the game. But I just loved, I loved teaching skill development, at early, so that was my intro to it.
So leading into segue, fast forward a couple years later 2019, or I guess 2017 I, I actually, the year before I had brought Turcot camps to Charleston. 'Cause we had, [00:09:00] my wife and I had picked Charleston as my off season training spot. And I reached out to Turcot and said, Hey, they, love to run the Turcot Camp Clinic here.
So I ran one of those in 2016 and then 2017 I told, I said, Hey, I'd like to start my own thing. And that's where Hunter Bishop Hockey got started. So I ran my first HBH camps in 2017 while I was still playing. And then obviously in 2019, that's when I. Kind of jumped in full time.
Jason Jacobs: And it's interesting because it, it would be easy to spend the whole episode going chronologically through your career and in some ways I think. We should do that. But the problem is if we did that, there's there's so much substance, so I might just do some of that in the intro, right?
And then we can kind get right to the good stuff. And I'm sure it'll get woven in, but but for example, you talk about how you just love the game out of the gate and there wasn't a lot else to do in Alaska. O one interesting trend I'm seeing is that before kids even have [00:10:00] the agency to love the game's just getting thrust upon them, right?
And before it's even clear that that all they ever want to do is hockey. All they're ever doing is hockey. And what do you think about that?
Hunter Bishop: I'm i'm a big advocate of multi-sport athletes. I'm definitely on that side. I don't love that hockey's become a 365 day sport. And maybe that's, a lot of that's coming from my own experience. We shut the wheels down and after the season for the summer, of course I did summer camps and, the lower and power skating, the turcot state handling camps.
Like I did the skill development camps, but I played soccer, I played football. I dabbled in a couple other sports. I think I, I played soccer and football pretty much up till high school when I think you gotta, pick a narrower path. But I think it's important to play other sports just may, even from just a mental standpoint, an athleticism standpoint, I think it's good to be well-rounded.[00:11:00]
It's, I love to hear that kids take a break and they play something else for a certain period of the year. I think it's important to give yourself rest from the ice and, and get to a point where you're excited to be back at the rink and you're not just going through the motions.
And of course there's, every kid's different and there's obviously different scenarios there. But for me it was important to take that break and have other sports and just be a being a well rounded athlete is I think, important.
Jason Jacobs: You talked about how you knew the game was for you from. Early age. Did you have goals in the game? And if so when did those come about and what were they? And I asked because that's a topic that came up in that recent episode I did with Freddy, where we're talking about the difference between goals and love and compete in the moment.
And he has his views, but I'm curious what your views are and what your story was in that regard.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah. So I, I look back, I [00:12:00] think growing up as a, as any young kid playing hockey, like of course, yes. I was, I wanted to be in the NHL, I had my favorite team, I had my favorite players. I loved the penguins, Mario Lemu, Jager. That was, hockey was my passion. I was h hockey all day, every day.
It's odd because I never really had the goal of playing college hockey. I always, in my head was like, I wanna make it to the NHL. That was my mindset early. I was all in, I would say from probably five or six in. And I can remember even being eight, nine, it's you're at school, it's, what do you want to be when you get older?
It was from an early age. I wanna play in the NHL. And I think I was in that category of just obsessed it's all I wanted to do. It's, my especially by the time I was like nine, 10 decision making and, playing hockey and shooting pucks it's just, it was, that was my identity early.
But I guess to, to [00:13:00] answer your question, I think it's, I do think it's important to be in the moment as well and the passion. I know Freddy touched on that too and this is my approach to player development, but I think the passion is the most important component.
All that, because yeah, my goal was to play in the NHL, but I loved to play hockey. Like I wanted to play and I come home from school. I wanted to go skate on my outdoor rink. I didn't go out there because I thought, this is gonna get me to the NHL. Of course it does help you to attain your goals, but I went out there because, Charlie Britt and Logan Tui were coming over, we're gonna play one-on-one or, just keep away.
I just love to play the game. So I think one doesn't, the goal doesn't happen without the other. I think the passion component is the most important piece. And you gotta just, you gotta love the game. It has to be fun. You gotta, if you're gonna get up at 6:00 AM to skate before school, you gotta do it because you love the game.
[00:14:00] Otherwise, it becomes, it feels like work. And it should never feel like work. It should feel like, I love to do this. This is what I, this is what I want. This is where I'm happy. So I think that staying in the moment doing it because you love it and it's fun, that's the most important component in my eyes.
Jason Jacobs: And it's I mean it's interesting because you hear that a lot of a lot of the player former players who are coming on the show, they talk about how growing up they get home and they just went out and played with their buddies and compete and fun and and now I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but I feel like here in New England and one of the reasons why I'm trying to bring on a global representation of the sport, right?
So I, I do under start to learn how it is in other parts of the world. But, kids aren't doing that. They're getting picked up at school and going to shooting, and then they're going to edge work, and then they're going to the gym and then they're going to practice. Right Now I'm, I'm exaggerating, right?
But but it's very structured and it's oh, [00:15:00] you have an off day. Okay let's like go to the bottom hill and put your parachute on. You know what I mean? And you're a, you're a skills guy now for a living, and I've also heard you talk about the value of specialty skills like shooting, and I'm sure there's other specialty skills that also have value edge work.
How do you reconcile those two things?
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, that's, we could talk for the rest of the hour on that. I guess I'll I guess my basis is and I firm and I tell parents this, I said, it really needs to come from the player, especially as they get older. It's there's nothing worse for me than having a player come out for a lesson who doesn't really want to be there and their parents are pushing them to be there.
So there has to be a connection between what the player wants and what the parents want. It's, does the player wanna get better? Yes. But is it fun for him to put the work in to get better? That answer has to be yes, too. Otherwise we're not gonna get very far on my side in the development piece.
So [00:16:00] I think there's gotta be a strong there's gotta be a strong want and strong need and strong passion from the kid, which is why I think, in my position and other guys that are in my position. You have to make hockey fun first and foremost for the players. Like it has to be, a skill session.
Like we, edge work has to be, has to, you gotta make it fun for the kids, right? If it's not fun for the kids, they're not gonna enjoy working on edge work. But you're, your skating is probably at some point gonna weed a lot of players out, so you have to work on it, and that's always been my approach at camp.
It's Hey I'm gonna expect you guys to work really hard. You're gonna get better in the five days that you're with me. But we're gonna have a lot of fun doing it. And that's, to me, that's the first thing I talk about in any camp that I run is this is, you're gonna enjoy your time here. You're gonna look forward to coming back in the morning.
You're gonna work hard. It's not gonna be easy, but we're gonna really enjoy ourselves while we're at the rink. And I think [00:17:00] to me, like I said, that it's the groundwork. Like it has to be there. The passion has to be there. And it's, it is tough 'cause it, it is very structured and I think kids get a little bit overloaded with the structure.
It's like you're at school from seven 30 to two 30 and then, it's power skating. You go outside and you work with the shooting coach. And I think for certain kids, when they're on the same page as mom and dad and it's no, I want that. I want to be at the rink. I love shooting pucks.
You wouldn't believe how much better my wrist shot's gotten. Or, I can shoot it 12 inches off the ice posted in low blocker because of the work I've done with, x with this guy. So I think when the kid loves it and it makes sense from that point then it's great. But when it's the other way and the kids are exhausted and it's, it's I don't really want to go today.
I think that's when parents, need to maybe take a half or a step back and say, okay, they're not enjoying it as much. I think. Kids gotta have fun. Or at some point, they're not that they're gonna resent the game, but there's a [00:18:00] lot of sacrifices that go into, growing level to level in hockey and those sacrifices.
If you're all in and you're passionate about the sport, they don't feel like sacrifices at all because it's what you love to do.
Jason Jacobs: I largely agree with that, but let me just for sake of argument, let me give you a fictitious. Counter example that will spur some dialogue, right? And 'cause I wrestled with this as a dad. 'cause on the one hand it's like, of course you want to keep it fun. You wanna let the kids be kids.
If they're not doing it outta love, they're never gonna stick with it. It's a long road. So I get all that. Here's the counter example. It's a non hockey one, but and I'm, again, I'm making it up, but but it's hey, like when I was 10, my, my dad would bring me out, my, my dad was a farmer and he would bring me out, on the tractor and like bailing hay and milking the cows and doing whatever.
And I didn't like it at the time, but I look back and I credit so much of my success in life to that work ethic that he instilled from the earliest ages. And if you had asked me in the moment, I never would've wanted to do it. But I'm so glad he did that for me. So are we ba, are we babying the kids?
Hunter Bishop: [00:19:00] yes, I would baby the kids. Okay. So I think I, no, I think that's a great point. 'cause I think, kids are kids and they're young and maybe they're tired. Other things are going on in their life. They're gonna have those days. I think there just has to be, and maybe I was talking more about the extreme of that.
I'm referring more to the extreme because,
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. The kids that are blurry eyed because like they clearly all they need is like sleep or an off day, and yet they're getting dragged to a triple session.
Hunter Bishop: I think it's the parents' job to make sure that the balance is there, I guess is the most important. And everybody know, knows their kid best. But yes, I, to your point, of course there's times where you d need to push your, push your kid that extra step and hey, but I think the dialogue has to be clear.
It's okay, you told me that you wanna make that team next year. Okay how does that happen? And I think as long as kids have the understanding of, if that's what you want, and this is what you're [00:20:00] trying to get to. These are the things that you gotta do and you're gonna have off days.
But I think the most important thing is that it doesn't creep into the, and I know this is a conversation you've talked to and Freddy touched on it, but, I think back to we, you could do a whole podcast on the car ride home, right? The car ride home after the sport and,
Jason Jacobs: You should start a podcast called The Car Ride Home.
Hunter Bishop: called the car ride home, right?
So it's those conversations and I think back to the conversations I've had with my dad, and those were the most important in the car ride home. And then as I got older and, we could go back and forth a little more aggressively, those conversations were that much more important. And I remember, my dad wouldn't bring it up unless I asked right?
Unless I, and asked and wanted his opinion. But if I wanted to, shut it off and. Clear my head from a game. He let me but if I asked, he gave he gave me the raw, honest opinion. But I think just keeping a [00:21:00] healthy balance of where your kid's at, how much of their life is consuming and just to keep them passionate about the game, I think is really important because it's a long road to get to the top and, or, to make it to high levels.
And I think it's important to, to keep kids in a good mental state from that point.
Jason Jacobs: Another thing I talked about with Freddy, and it sounds like you listened to that episode as well, but but is just if Freddy's point of view wa, was that that you should be dominating at a level before you move up and that if you move up too early, it can be detrimental. And while we aren't gonna go through a chronological journey of your long, illustrious career with a twisting path, one surgical strike I would like to make is that you got to University of North Dakota and four games in, you made the decision to leave and go back to juniors because you felt like you weren't ready and you. Wanted more [00:22:00] development. That is a fascinating decision. And while it's not exactly in line with Freddy's point, it's related to Freddy's point, and I'd love to just hear more about your mindset at the time in that decision process and also with the benefit of hindsight now so many years later.
What life lessons you take away from that and what advice you have for others.
Hunter Bishop: So it's, that decision was a direct connection to a lesson I felt like I learned earlier. So my sophomore season of high school, I played in the NAHL for my Fairbank Fairbanks Ice Dogs. And I had a solid year. I was the youngest kid on the team. I think I, I finished the season well in the, I think I started out in the bottom six.
I finished the season in the top six. It's first year at junior hockey. I'm, 16 playing with 20 year olds. It was, there was a lot of learning curve, I think that went into that year. The next year, my junior year, I decided to [00:23:00] jump into the USHL in Cedar Rapids. And that year specifically was one of the hardest years, I feel like in my career, because first year away from home we won the championship that year, the team was stacked Teddy Purcell, Justin Abator, Alex Stalac, like we had.
A stud group, but I was in and out on the fourth line every game and it was a really hard year for me. And frankly I was pretty unhappy that year. It just was a really tough year for me. I felt like confidence-wise, it was challenging on that aspect as well.
To Freddy's point, I think it is important to dominate an, a level before making the jump to a next level. Hindsight 2020, was I ready to jump into the USHL that year? Maybe not, but ultimately that made, I made the decision to leave the USHL and go to the BCHL, be a little closer [00:24:00] home.
The, I had a, we had a great contact in the BCHL that, and ended up stepping into a really great environment and just. A league that really fit my game in the BCHL. My time in Vernon had a really great I would say a good first year in the B-C-H-L-I, I didn't dominate, but I had a good year.
And that's, that's where the conversation started with North Dakota. And we really wrestled with the decision of whether to go as a true freshman or not. I think it went all the way till the deadline of when I had to decide of, am I ready to go play at a top collegiate program next season?
And we, obviously, we made the decision to go. And it, again, TJO, Oshi Jonathan t it was like I, I'm on a team with some NHL legends and. At Christmas time, I'd played four [00:25:00] games, fourth line, limited minutes, and, contrary to everybody else, and including my parents, I remember calling, I said, Hey, I think I'm gonna leave North Dakota and I'm gonna go back to Vernon and go play more juniors.
And I remember my mom and dad like, Hey you really need to think this through. I don't think that's, they didn't agree with the decision. Obviously North Dakota didn't agree with the decision, people relied on, but my gut said, Hey, there's, we had I think one or two seniors that year.
And I knew that if everybody, if they didn't lose a bunch of bodies that year, I was gonna be in a very similar position and role the next year. That's how I felt. So I thought and made the decision, Hey let's go back to Vernon. I wanted to keep that confidence in my game.
I really didn't I didn't conquer the BCHL yet. Like I didn't dominate that league. And I knew that, [00:26:00] and that, that's, I think a lot of the reason that we struggled with the decision of whether I was ready to leave. It was a really hard one for me because, I was at one of the best college programs in the US and, it great coaching staff great everything.
But for me, it just didn't feel right. I felt like I was losing my confidence in the game and I didn't, and I'd just slowly gotten that back. Going back to Vernon, that was a big confidence building season for me. To go back to, not having that, I just it's something I didn't wanna lose.
Yeah, to, I think it's, I, you look at youth players who are, tracing the, chasing the three letter league. You need to dominate AA or you need to dominate single A before you play double A. And you need to dominate double A before I think you're ready to make a decision to, leave home or go play for another program and, drive hours to, to play AAA because at the end of the day that the grass isn't gonna be greener on that side you're not gonna play as many minutes.
The [00:27:00] development components can not gonna be quite as good. And I, again, everybody's past unique, obviously mine was unique, but I do feel it's very important that you dominate at the level you're at before you jump to the next one because, confidence and timing play a big piece in your success.
A as you move along the path in this game, at least.
Jason Jacobs: So there's a semi-related point I want to touch on and that's a quote that you hear frequently in the hockey world, which is that they all end up in beer league eventually. And I bring that up because. It's a hockey path, as you've lived, is a long, grueling road. And I'm just learning about, again, my oldest is 13, but it's I mean we're, even, as we start to think about high school, it's reclass or not, and then some kids are reclassing twice, right?
And then it's oh, and then you're not just gonna go straight from high school to college. Then there's juniors and if, depending on where you live and where you [00:28:00] end up, like you might need to leave and go live with a billet family and then, kids might leave high school early to go to juniors and do zoom school to finish their degree.
And I feel like an old man sometimes because I, when I started my when I started my first company I mean my parents. Thought I was nuts. And they were like, wait, you're leaving a job and you have no other job lined up. And then you hear stories of like famous musicians who when they told their parents they weren't going to college and they were gonna hit the road and try to make a go of it like that, it like, caused World War III in the house or, actors moving to LA and waiting tables.
And it's like you're 28, dude. Give up the dream. And so I guess my question is, given that they all end up in beer league eventually, how do you balance as a player optimizing for hockey versus optimizing for life? And then what role should the parents play in terms of keeping your kid from torching themselves on the life path, but also not squashing their dreams?
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, it's I [00:29:00] guess the hope, and, the hope and dream of any parent is that the game is gonna. gonna give 'em that exactly like the two are correlated together, your dream. And, I, at my camp we do, in our office we do a, we do lesson I call it lesson hour school, cla classroom work.
But, one of the, one of my favorite ones to talk about is, being a good teammate and obviously being a good teammate translates directly to just being a good person. And being a good person is gonna translate to being happy and successful. Hopefully a after, after the game is over and, it's less than 1% that makes it right.
And I tell kids, it's, to get paid to play this game, there's no greater, it's called it's a job, but it never feels like a job, but there's no greater job than to get paid to play the sport that you love. It's an amazing dream to chase. [00:30:00] And I feel like for me it's shaped who I am today.
And I love, and I have zero regret in, in what I did, but the game gave me so much more than just chasing an NHL dream, right? It gives you that, that structure in your life to be successful afterwards and to be detailed and to put in the work and to, compete and have that edge and that drive that you know, is gonna make you successful, whether it's in hockey or any other aspect of your life.
To me, I, I think the whole goal and the structure of hockey should be exactly that, to set them up after the game, right? The game should give you that, the structure and the foundation and the pillars to be successful. Outside of hockey. And that truly is, and I hope is the approach of other skill developers and guys that are developing, young athletes.
It's give 'em those, give 'em that foundation that's gonna make 'em successful, not just in hockey, but in life as [00:31:00] well. And if that's the approach, I think the game's always gonna result in a win. Whether they make it to the level that they were set out to or not like it, the game's gonna be, the game of hockey's gonna be a win for them in the overall picture of their life.
Jason Jacobs: I agree with that. There's so many life lessons that come from the game and I'm, and not just hockey, all sports and I'm seeing that with both of my kids. I think the other side to that is that I've heard you say, and I've heard many players say that the transition out of playing the game is a really tough one.
And and it almost seems, and correct me if I'm wrong that the longer you stay in the game, the harder it is to transition. It's almost I don't know if you've ever saw Shawshank Redemption, but it's it's like Brooks when he finally gets outta prison, he's like, all he wants to do is go back 'cause he doesn't know any other way.
So maybe tot talk a little bit about that, about your transition from the game, but also just [00:32:00] that transition in general and how you think about that relative to all the valuable lessons that you get from the game that you can apply to life outside of the game.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, so I, I think it's, there's no way around it. You know it when you decide to hang up the skates and you're not doing the sport. You've been playing since you were four or five. There's no way around that not being a tough transition. I think. It's just, it's habit.
It's what you do. I, I think the things you miss the most as a player, obviously you, you miss the game, but most importantly, you miss the people and your teammates and, just the, just that team aspect, the team camaraderie. And, I talked to a lot of, my former teammates who are now in, in corporate or they started their own business, but and a lot ended up in, a odd oddly, a lot of my college teammates have ended up in like medical sales or firemen.
And I think [00:33:00] ultimately what they end up finding is a similar culture to that. They're, they find that team aspect or an environment where they get to where they feel like they're competing. You know what I mean? And they get that same. That same adrenaline and passion that they had with hockey.
They find it in other jobs. Yeah it obviously it's a struggle, not, I think just the, to come outta the game and the lifestyle and and that part of it for me, I had started the player development while I was still playing. So I think that my, probably made my transition a little bit easier maybe than somebody who goes cold Turkey and they're not on the ice anymore.
I took a job putting together a, a junior program here in the Charleston area. So my first year retired, I was at the rink more than I was at a, as a player. And, I was recruiting the next generation. And I went right in, hockey to hockey and just was on the other side of the game.
So obviously that had, its. Had its challenges, but, the following year I went full-time [00:34:00] with Hunter Bishop Hockey and just skill development camps and got involved with the youth program. And then, then COVID happened and, it got a little bit challenging for on the hockey side and
Jason Jacobs: So that's when you went on the podcast circuit when it was challenging on the hockey side.
Hunter Bishop: yeah. The, I'm running camps, I got a mask on. I'm, I feel like I can't breathe on the ice. It was just, that was just a strange time. I, obviously for everybody, but right after COVID I ended up jumping into a a franchise.
I own a me and my, my, my wife and my brother-in-law, who's my business partner. We own four butcher Shop franchises.
Jason Jacobs: When you did that or when of last time an article was written about it, it was one, so now it's four.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, we got we own three of 'em here in Charleston, and then we own one up in Cincinnati, Ohio. So now I have a pretty pretty good balance between, hockey and and helping out on
Jason Jacobs: That's a, is that a franchise
Hunter Bishop: yeah. Yeah, it's a franchise.
Jason Jacobs: When gonna do, you should do minis next.
Hunter Bishop: many rinks. Yeah. I would love to do many [00:35:00] rinks.
We 'cause here in Charleston we have one twin rinks. We, we have the coliseum where the protein plays out of, but essentially there's only one spot, where hockey's happening on a year round basis. So it's the game's definitely growing here in Charleston.
I, I think I stepped into a pretty. Great situation. There's a lot of pro guys that have retired here and are now getting involved, have kids and now they're getting involved. And so many people have moved down from New York and New Jersey to Connecticut. So the game has really grown here in Charleston and I feel really fortunate to have been a part of that.
We have some really good young players who are starting to move into junior and college and it's just really fun to watch the game grow in this area. And to be honest I love what I do. I think even as a player, once I started HBHI knew that doing player development or being involved in hockey to some capacity is what I would do, when the game was done.
And I feel like I have a really great balance now between, two different worlds [00:36:00] with the butcher franchise and skill development. For me, it's been a somewhat easy transition. On the flip side of that, the guys that play into their late thirties and and aren't sure what, maybe they didn't go to school, they're not sure what they would do after.
Yeah. I think
Jason Jacobs: And still need to work.
Hunter Bishop: yeah. And still needing to work. That's, if you're, if you played 12, 15 years in NHL, you made great money. You made smart investments. I think that's obviously a much easier transition than, the guy who's you're planning the career out.
I think it's important. You should always be planning for, always have that fallback, continued education, fi you have to have other passions and other things that, that make you happy. I, you can, finding that balance, like I said before, that and being healthy is all about balance.
So it that obviously that it's the same with the game. You gotta. I think it, it was important for me at least, and it's how my mom and dad brought me up. It's, you're gonna do well in school. You're, you if you don't get good grades, you're not gonna play hockey because they knew it's, at some point you gotta have, [00:37:00] you gotta have both.
And there has to be an onus on, on, on both ends. Yeah, I think it's important to think about what you're gonna do after the game. And like I said, cont continually continue education and have that fallback plan.
Jason Jacobs: So another player development point that I wanted to kind of pressure test with you is on the one hand I've heard you talk about the importance of specialized instruction, so shooting or skating or stick handling or whatever. At the same time, there's a lot of talk about how important it is to develop kids in a way where they aren't, where it's translatable to a game situation and where there's compete, wherever possible, where there's fun, wherever possible.
If you separate a skill on an island, and an example is shooting, if you just take a hundred shots, but you're standing flatfooted taking a hundred shots, right? Like, how often in a game situation are you standing flatfooted and taking [00:38:00] any shots, right? There's coverage there, you gotta get it off quick.
You're, you might be in motion, you might be off balance, right? And so if you're not practicing in those settings, it's not gonna be as transferable. So I guess my questions here are one, how do you think about translatable versus specialized instruction? Maybe that, yeah, maybe. Maybe that's one of one.
Yeah, that's the question.
Hunter Bishop: I think, obviously with, you have to crawl before you walk and you have to walk before you run. I think the progression is really important, with, I think it's a, it's really obviously with younger guys, if you, if they don't have the foundation of how to load the puck and shoot a wrist shot you can't even talk about the different shot selections, right?
As I've grown in, in my, in what I do as far as the player development, I think doing the translatable skills and the position specific stuff is really what I focus on now. But again, with the young guys, you have to go back to the basics [00:39:00] and you know where to load the puck and your follow through and hand placement and all those things really matter when they're younger.
But I do think, as players get older, it's really important to dive. Shooting and scoring, becoming a better goal. Scorer. That's probably, I think is, I feel is my niche as a skill developer is shot selections and how to put yourself in position to get shots off most importantly.
And then the habits that are gonna result in more goals. Those are the things that I really like to drill home at. I think it's so important to work on the different shot selections, right? Like you can't just, no, you can't just work on shooting. Yeah. You like the foundation is just how to shoot a proper one-timer, but, where are you gonna shoot a one-timer from, right?
Is the second step of that. And, should not everybody can score from the goal line or just above it, like dry sightal, like finding the dots and finding the house and. Where your chest follow throughs, like those little details [00:40:00] in skill I think are what really make the difference.
Because and I believe everybody would say this, when you get to those high, the highest levels in the game, the differences between, your second line guy or your third line guy and your, I, let's say like your top three forwards and your top six forwards is so small, right? And the guy that scores 25 versus the guy that scores 15 there's little small differences in his game, that, that make him that much more successful.
So I think it's, for me that's the funnest part of skill development is finding those little consistencies, those little habits that players can see visually. And translate that into their game. One of my favorite camps that I do is our, I call it Geno Camp or Goal Scoring Camp, but each day the players come in and, we pick a, we pick a different player, maybe [00:41:00] it's Cole Caulfield or Dry Sidal or Austin Matthews.
And, the players will come in. We'll watch every goal that they scored that year. And I'll, I'll have a statistical breakdown of what shot selection they used, how many one-timers, how many tip tap rebounds, how many catch and release patterns. We'll see whether they scored in the, we call it a b, C zone.
So were they right in the house? Were they, or were they right in the crease? Were they in the house or were they on the perimeter? Did they score from the left side, the right side? And then we'll go out onto the ice and we will practice those shot selections and, the consistent ways that they scored.
And I think for me as a skill developer, as and as a player is it's so clear, right? They see it, we talk about it, they watch it again, and then we go out and practice it. And of course you can't, you can't be great at shooting one, one-timers in the goal line [00:42:00] until you've conquered the baseline skill of shooting a one-timer.
But I think for me, those specific skills is the funnest thing to work on. And for the pros, I think that's what, that is what makes players successful, is the details of the game. And that's where I like to focus.
Jason Jacobs: What are your thoughts on. Video in, you mentioned video already in terms of looking at some of the clips of the pros, but when it comes to your own video, what role should it have in an ideal world, and then how does that inform the, or in a perfect world, how does that inform the skills instruction as it relates to any of the different skills that you might go to a player development coach to work on, but also does it open the door to a new kind of instruction that might not fit cleanly in a box of any one specific skill, and for lack of a better word, let's just call it hockey iq.[00:43:00]
Hunter Bishop: Hockey iq. Hockey IQ is probably, it's the hardest it's the topic that comes up all the time. Yeah, he's great, but his hockey sense is lacking. Like he's a really skilled player, but he doesn't understand the timing of the game. How do you teach that? How do you teach that? And then as a player, you're on a team and maybe the coach.
Doesn't have access or doesn't like cutting footage. Like it's just a really, I think there's a, there's definitely a gap there in player development. Obviously at the pro and college and most junior world, like those clips are readily available. They may have the personnel to sit down with players and watch, but I think when you go back into youth, it's not always accessible as is as accessible.
And for me it's, the visual of watching the best players in the world and seeing how they do things is one of the most [00:44:00] important things that young players could do today to understand the game. And the video component, it's, I take a player and I can draw a drill up on the board and then I could send 'em out there to do it and it wouldn't go well at all.
But if I draw it up on the board. Then I go out and I demo it myself. That player might catch on right away. So every kid is so different in the way that they'll, grasp a concept. So I think, you have to tie in both. And I think the video component is just, it's an amazing tool for young players to understand the game.
And I know that's something that you're probably diving into a little deeper.
Jason Jacobs: I'm trying to, yeah, I'm in the early stages, but but let me probe on that a bit more. I'm imagining, so first just a clarification question. So sometimes you do private, sometimes you do small groups, sometimes you do camps. Is that correct?
Hunter Bishop: Yes.
Jason Jacobs: Okay. So in each of those settings do you have the chance to watch [00:45:00] those players either in the privates or in the small groups or in the camps, in game settings?
And if not, would it be useful? And and yeah, I guess if you did, or if you do, how does that change how you might work with them in a player development capacity, if at all?
Hunter Bishop: So I, I do use video goal scoring camp. We use video a lot. When I do small group privates, if I have a really specific skill we're gonna try to work on, I think showing an example of it on video helps. I don't use it as often as I should. It's. It's a lot of work cutting film, right?
And putting together examples. And I have a great a great contact and Jacob a guy named Jacob mvi, who coaches. But, I think having that arsenal of video that you could show players would be a huge bonus [00:46:00] I think, in a player development session. But I think most importantly through the year, right?
It's if a player says, I'm struggling on the half wall in my own end, I feel like my coach doesn't trust me to be out there when we're up by a goal because of, turning pucks over.
Jason Jacobs: I have.
Hunter Bishop: I think in that instance, you could show a player a similar person in the Hhl who's a left winger, and you could show all their half wall D zone decision making, right?
And then you could create. Some skill development that would make them more successful in different scenarios, in half wall breakouts in their own end. So I think that's the progression that video could be used in. It's, here's where you're struggling, here's an example of the decisions you made that, that were incorrect.
Okay, here's some examples of a way that you could break the puck out or make a better decision on [00:47:00] the half wall, and here's some skills that you can work on and stick and puck or with your trainer that are gonna increase your percentage of breaking the puck out more consistently. So I think that's where video can be a powerful tool.
Obviously it's great to watch and the game happens so fast and hindsight's always 2020, a half wall roll. Is a half wall roll. And if you watch 20 clips, there's probably some big consistencies in a half wall roll on a power play or rolling downhill on your strong side like Matthews, right?
And what opens up. So I think, to be a steadier the game and using the video component could be a very powerful tool, especially at the youth amateur level, for players to, to understand the game. And obviously those, there's different levels in that. But, I think back to something as simple as two on one decisions, right?
And when to shoot, when to pass how [00:48:00] to, to, to hide, to not showcase what your cards are and just to watch how the best players in the world do it and take those skills and bring 'em into your game, I think would be, I wish I would've had it when I was coming up.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, I mean I've uncovered, and I mean it sounds like you even do some of this, but there's, yeah, some coaches out there who, they start with video and they watch your games and then they get a sense of where you're at. And then they might spot, pick off some themes that are high frequency and high leverage if you could address, and some of them might be skills based, but some of them might have nothing to do with skills. It might just have to do with positioning, decision making as an example. And then show you the clips and then find clips of NH tellers who. Are doing it right. As the gold standard. And then get you on the ice and kind of work on those things specifically in a translatable way, whether it's in a private or as a small group. [00:49:00] And it feels like it's really teaching and it's so powerful. But to your point, it's so labor intensive, right? Especially on the video side. And the question I've been asking is just if there were a way to scale it, and I don't mean from one-on-one to, a million people or something.
But but just make it so that you could make that magical teaching be accessible to more people. And I don't know if that means. Assembling, it could be a law firm structure where you have like seniors and then associates, the equivalent of associates and paralegals. Who don't bill as expensively as like the managing partner.
I mean that, that's an example. And that's another thing we can talk about, which Hunter Bishop Hockey, right? Because I know that you've, you have a pretty sizable team now. There's other examples where maybe technology has a role. So you mentioned it's very labor intensive on the video side.
What's labor intensive about it? And is that things that either a junior [00:50:00] human or the machines might be able to pick off? And if we could make it less labor intensive, then it means potentially that it would cost you less hours and it cost you less hours, then you could charge less money and it could be more accessible.
Or you could have a bigger, and you could have a bigger client base. You don't cap out at 10 people or whatever. So those are some things I'm thinking about and it's, yeah, it's fascinating to hear from people like you that are in the trenches. Doing this in kind of the highest touch way since I think that will inform what's possible in maybe a lighter touch way.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, and I think players are. Players are hungry for more feedback, more information. I think they're hungry to get better, right? They're hungry to get more ice and more opportunity. Sometimes those conversations can be, not awkward, but challenging to have, on, on a, within a team, right?
With your coach, and you don't wanna be in his office every week. So it's you gotta pick, not pick and choose your spots, but I think that pa just that navigating those [00:51:00] waters can be a little bit tricky for players. Having access to, I, I get this question all the time, and it might be like a private message on Instagram, but, Hey, will you send me can you send me some drills to make my shot better or.
Can you send me, I'm struggling scoring do you have anything you suggest? So I think that's a hard one from far when, I don't have all my stuff readily available on, I don't have drills readily available through an app that I can just zip to 'em.
So I think there's definitely a, there's definitely a piece that's missing there that players could be getting a lot more purposeful information from skill developers, where they could see examples. And I keep going back to video 'cause it's I'm, I'm struggling offensively.
Okay. I can watch his clips, I can give him verbal or verbal feedback. We can watch his clips and dissect it. But, it's not perfect. And it definitely could be it could be more purposeful and a little bit cleaner if it's okay. Here's a three on two example.[00:52:00]
And here you forced the pack, pass in the middle. Here's what you didn't see. Here's an example of what it looks like when it works, or here's an example of what you could do without the puck and your timing to come into that F three spot to get that, to get that pass or cross ice. I think when players can watch it and not just watch their mistake, but watch it done successfully, that's when it, it can, it clicks with a lot of guys and I think that's where it can be really powerful.
Jason Jacobs: I just had one crazy idea as we were talking, but there's this there's this company out there that you can essentially build an avatar of yourself, and the more information you feed it about yourself, the better job it can do of representing you when you're not there. And you can engage with it.
Like people can engage with it. You could just like have a public web. You could stick your avatar on Hunter Bishop hockey, right? And if you feed the machines that power your avatar whatever you got clips of you doing teaching sessions reports that, [00:53:00] analysis that you've pulled together for different player, like whatever you got, right?
And then the more you have and the more granular it is, like the smarter the machine gets, right? And imagine. Imagine if every player development coach had a virtual representation of themselves that anyone could go to and just ask questions like, send me a clip on this or that, and it's just gonna be you when you're not around.
Hunter Bishop: May call me old school. I, that, that's a scary, that's a scary thought. But I think the basis is fun. The idea and concept. Any player around the world could upload their shifts and you could pick out, and where do they want to focus? I wanna focus on the offensive part of it and and to put together an analysis of here, here's where you're falling short a little bit, and your decision making needs in improvement, and here's some examples of what that improvement would look like.
And then here's the, here's a tactical skill development plan that's [00:54:00] gonna make you success more successful in those scenarios. I think that's a, it's an incredible concept and tool that could be utilized. But yeah, that's, I don't know. Avatar or HVHI don't, I'm not sure.
Jason Jacobs: It's hard to sort through because on the one hand you have player development people that might say for you hear different things. You will hear like it's never gonna replace the human because like the, an episode, a D one head coach said this to me yesterday, an episode that's gonna ship soon said said that, like the X's and o's are the easy part.
It's the human element of how you communicate stuff and. In what format you communicated and knowing your players and knowing like which ones, you can like, dress down in front of the team and which ones you need to give a heads up in advance. And, it's it's like the psychology of it is almost more important than the X's and O's, right?
And so in that regard, like the machines will never replace the human, but the other side is you hear people say shoot like I'm on a treadmill in a services business and I want something to run when I, whether or not I'm running right? And how do I get that right?
But then you also hear [00:55:00] yeah, but if it isn't, if it's, if I can't trust it, then it's worse than not having it at all. So either I want the good stuff or I want nothing, but don't give me like untrustworthy stuff that works sometimes and doesn't others. And I have to parse through when to listen and when not, I just want to either trust it or not have it.
So it's confusing as a, as a potential product creator or service creator of some form to figure out what the right balance is. Where, how do you get leverage without compromising quality? And and how do you balance, it's the, it's clear there's gonna be, need to be tradeoffs, but figuring out like what trade offs to make for which things right.
Is it is definitely more art than science and it's largely untreaded ground, right? It's daunting, but also pretty, I don't know, at least to me, pretty exciting to try to figure it out.
Hunter Bishop: Yeah, really it's really exciting, obviously the reach aspect and just the accessibility and, if it's consistent. But I think, like I said I keep going back to the video and I think it's underutilized and whether it's AI or in person, I think for players to have access [00:56:00] to more video to, to learn the game. Grow that hockey iq. I think it's could be a really fun and powerful tool that could be utilized for sure.
Jason Jacobs: I feel like there's a whole lot more for us to talk about, but we're already up to over, over 70 minutes. And so I guess maybe this is a good place to wrap. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any parting words you'd like to leave with listeners?
Hunter Bishop: I think obviously thanks for having me on. This has been great. We could probably do a whole nother episode and dive into a bunch of other concepts. But I love what I do. I love the game of hockey and what it's, how it's shaped my life for the young players out there.
I think, I go back to the word love or passion. Learn to love the game, be passionate and purposeful about what you do and the game's gonna love you back. I think it's, that's where the basis starts. You gotta, it, it [00:57:00] shouldn't feel like work. It should feel like, I'm doing what I love.
This is where I'm happy. And of course there's sacrifices along the way and there's ear early alarms and different foods that maybe aren't as tasty as others, but, the, at the end of the day, you're gonna be really happy with the result. And it's the greatest game in the world.
And there's nothing better than than playing hockey for a living.
Jason Jacobs: I can tell you one thing for sure if we lived in South Car Carolina, I would be taking my kid to check out. Hunter Bishop Hockey.
Hunter Bishop: I appreciate that. We we, I got, hBH camps are a lot of fun, but it's the team I have around me. I have an unbelievable group of, guys that are still playing pro, guys that are playing college Junior that, that come out and give back to the game and coach alongside me.
And we just have a really great group here that's just growing the game of hockey and getting kids excited about coming to the rink.
Jason Jacobs: Awesome. Hunter, thanks so much for coming on the show. [00:58:00] Thanks for all you do for the kids and for the sport, and I'll be following along cheering for you and who knows, as I get further along, maybe there's some stuff we can do together.
Hunter Bishop: All right. I appreciate you. Thanks Jason.
Jason Jacobs: Thank you for tuning in to the next, next. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did and you haven't already, you can subscribe from your favorite podcast player, whether it's Apple, Spotify, or any of the others. We also send a newsletter every week on the journey itself. The new content that we publish, the questions that we're wrestling with, how the platform itself is coming along, that we're planning to build for player development, and where we could use some help.
And you can find that at the next next.substack.com. Thanks a lot and see you soon.