In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs interviews Trevor Edwards, a former 4-year varsity hockey player at Clarkson University and current GM of the Dubuque Fighting Saints in the USHL. Edwards also holds multiple coaching roles within the Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Youth organization. The discussion delves into Edwards' journey in hockey, his philosophy on player development, and the evolving landscape of the sport. Key topics include the role of self-direction, the impact of environment on player growth, balancing parental involvement, and fostering hockey IQ in young athletes. Edwards emphasizes the importance of creating a supportive and structured environment while maintaining the player's passion for the game. The episode offers insights into effective coaching strategies and the critical aspects of nurturing talent both on and off the ice.
In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs discusses the growth and development of hockey players both on and off the ice with guest Trevor Edwards. Trevor, who is a former varsity hockey player at Clarkson University and the current GM of the Dubuque Fighting Saints in the USHL, shares his extensive experience in player development. He also discusses his role in the Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Youth organization. The conversation covers a range of topics, including the evolution of the game, self-direction, the role of parents and coaches, and the balance between structure and creativity. They delve into the importance of environment and decision-making in player development, and explore whether hockey IQ can be taught. Trevor also offers advice to parents on selecting the right developmental environment for their children. This episode provides valuable insights for anyone involved in the world of hockey.
00:00 Introduction to Puck Academy
00:15 Meet Trevor Edwards
00:47 Trevor's Journey and Involvement in Hockey
01:00 Discussion on Player Development and Coaching
01:35 Starting the Interview: Trevor's Initial Reaction
06:48 Trevor's Coaching Philosophy and Experience
11:53 The Role of Environment in Player Development
22:06 Balancing Structure and Creativity in Hockey
27:57 Scouting and Coaching: Eyes vs. Data
31:33 Self-Direction and Holistic Development
35:57 Athlete-Led Development
37:13 Balancing Structure and Fun in Youth Sports
38:31 The Role of Parents and Coaches
39:48 Creating a Positive Team Environment
41:34 Challenges in Youth Sports Development
46:19 Teaching Hockey IQ
59:34 Assessing Coaching Quality
01:02:36 Final Thoughts and Parting Words
[Jason]
Welcome to Puck Academy, a show about how hockey players grow on and off the ice. I'm Jason Jacobs, the host. And each week I talk with players, coaches, and experts shaping the future of player development.
Today's guest is Trevor Edwards. Trevor was a four-year varsity hockey player at Clarkson University Division I, and he's currently the GM of the Dubuque Fighting Saints in the USHL. He's also very involved in the Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Youth Organization, where he was the director of player and coach development, and is now head coach of the 16U team, head coach of the Mite Development Program, and a skills coach for the Excel Hockey Academy.
I was excited for this one because Trevor is a hockey dad. He's very involved at the high-end youth level, and he is involved in a story program in the USHL. We have a great discussion in this episode about Trevor's path in the game.
His thoughts on how the game has been evolving. And we spend a lot of time talking about some of these nuanced topics around self-direction, IQ, the role of parents, the role of coaching, what works, what doesn't work, lessons learned, and advice for parents and players that are trying to navigate as the landscape is changing so quickly under our feet. I really enjoyed this one, and I hope you do as well.
Trevor, welcome to the show.
[Trevor]
Thank you, Jason.
[Jason]
First question for you. I emailed you cold, and you're an impressive hockey guy with a great pedigree in the sport, and you somehow said yes to my little show, so I didn't ask you this in prep, but I'll ask you now, why didn't you tell me to buzz off?
[Trevor]
Great, great opening question. I mean, to be honest, at first, the first feeling was exactly what you just said, right? Like, wait a second, who the hell is reaching out to me to do a podcast like this?
And then, honestly, I did a little bit of research. I looked at a lot of the people that you have on the show, and we just kind of went over this in the prep a little bit. You seem like just an intrigued person that wants to help educate the hockey community and the hockey world, and you asked a lot of good questions and some of the other podcasts that I kind of just tuned in.
I started kind of listening to a few of them, and it got added to my playlist, so that was the reason, you know, and I appreciate when people take interest in the sport and want to help educate both players and parents and others in the sport, so thanks for reaching out.
[Jason]
Well, I appreciate you making the time, and yeah, I've entered new categories before professionally outside of this project, and yeah, if you come in as a newcomer, initially people are like, who the F is this guy, and why is he chasing around all my friends, right? But over time, if you just, I mean, I think I even heard you talk about this on the hockey think tank about the sport, right, that like patience, long view, one foot in front of the other, just get up and try to do the right thing every day and find a positive and see the learning from every, you know, like, like it's not a failure if you find a positive and you learn and apply it, right? And so I'm just trying to take that approach and the hope is that over time, the body works speaks for itself, right?
As I become more known as more guests come on the show that are familiar to people as they can speak to their experience on the show and the inbound that they get from it and the old friends they hear from and stuff like that, and I just found it's a really incredible way to learn. And I mean, selfishly, you know, get connected in a new space and build a following that can then be applicable once I figure out if and what I might end up building here. So, but yeah, getting high quality guests to come on and educate me and educate listeners is essential for that.
And so I'm so grateful for you making the time because you are absolutely a high quality guest. I mean, GM of a storied USHL team played Division I at Clarkson, which one of my best friends from growing up, he was not a, he played hockey in high school, but he wasn't good enough to play at Clarkson, but he went to Clarkson just missed you. He was a little older, but yeah, I mean, kind of storied college program.
And then the, I mean, even the club program that you're involved with at the youth level, I think that you 14 team that you coach and I know you're involved in other ways, but aren't they like top five in the country?
[Trevor]
So far, so good. Kids are learning. We got a really talented group.
It's a lot of fun. So, but yeah, thank you for all of that. I just consider myself very fortunate.
Been surrounded by really good people. I've found my way into and within several really, really high quality organizations along the way and have learned a lot and continue to learn a lot every day. So again, I'm just thankful to be in those types of environments and, you know, just like you, I just want to keep learning.
[Jason]
I mean, my admission to you, since you admitted, you know, you're admission to me about, you know, wanting to blow me off initially, which I don't hold against you. But, but I mean, I would want to blow me off if I got me in my inbox. When I invited you on, it was, it was the hockey pedigree.
It was the, you know, USHL. And I mean, all the things we just talked about, but actually in prep for the show, I've uncovered that, you know, you're very much long view, very much, you know, kind of life hockey success and life success need to go hand in hand. Academic.
Like, I know you did some philanthropic stuff at, um, at Clarkson, it won a sportsmanship award, right? And, and that just as a dad, as I'm trying to figure things out with my own kid. And if I were ever to build something in the space to help others, which I'm thinking about, um, uh, I wouldn't want to do anything that just optimize only for, for short term hockey gain, right?
At the expense of long term life path. Cause that just wouldn't, that wouldn't align with my values. It wouldn't feel good to me as a, as a person.
So, um, so I, I was really, um, pleasantly surprised to, to, to find out as I was prepping for the discussion that you are philosophically aligned in that way.
[Trevor]
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think, um, you just stick to trying to do the right thing, right? Just like we ask our players to find the right play, right?
When they play the game and to, to every day show up with that right mindset and work ethic and, and just try their best. I think I've tried to live by that and in my coaching and management, um, along the way. And even when I played the game, that was how I tried to play it, right?
Like, and maybe do a fault at sometimes, uh, where you just, you try to follow the direction of the coach, try to follow the direction of the team, do whatever it takes. Um, kind of taking that to a, my coaching, um, with the kids and trying to educate parents and try to teach them, uh, and, you know, some of the lessons or ones that you learned through your own trials and air. Um, you know, I was pretty fortunate to start coaching at a pretty young age.
Uh, and a unique situation coaching, um, and having, you know, stepchildren at a young age myself that were a little older. So I could kind of, I don't want to say they were guinea pigs, but, uh, you know, you kind of learned maybe some lessons along the way that you may never have gotten at a younger age in the coaching world. Just because of the circumstances, right?
So, um, you know, it's, it's been fun and just continue to keep trying to pass that, pass that on. And, um, like, even today, I love, like, I help run our advanced mic program here in Pittsburgh, working with six, seven, eight year olds and their parents to try to guide them. Um, you know, and really it's, it's like therapy every week as you deal with, uh, a lot of the stuff that, that comes with either coaching at the 14, you know, a level or running a USHL franchise.
You know, getting on the ice with the eight year olds can, uh, can cure your day. Anything you may be that, you know, just seeing their smile and trying to provide them with, uh, you know, fresh excitement for the game.
[Jason]
I want to start with something that you didn't cover on the think tank because I wanted to try to get some new learnings, even though the audience that didn't listen to the think tank probably would want to cover all the basics, like how to get into the sport and your path and that. Um, but, um, but one thing that I learned was that your dad was a coach. And one thing I'm curious about is this seems to me like an outsized, um, amount of players who end up progressing far in the game have parents who either played the game at a high level coach, the game at a high level, or both.
Um, did, did, have you, do you share that observation? Like, are you seeing that as well? And if so, why do you think that is?
[Trevor]
I mean, in the end, your product or your environment typically, right? So, you know, my dad was a hockey coach growing up and, and provided, you know, those, uh, those early learning moments. Um, but I think more importantly, it was like an environment and a passion that kind of brushed off on me as a teenager.
Um, you know, he, he encouraged me to to look at the other side of the sport, which is the teaching component, right? So it's, he was always one that would say, like, you know, you learn from, from having to teach it yourself, right? You get a different perspective and you start to understand what the coach is going through and what they're trying to teach.
And it helps the player then understand, you know, what they're going through. And I've done the same thing with my, my children, um, you know, had them involved in the spring and summers helping coach at the youth levels and giving back and it gives them a different perspective. Um, you know, within their playing as well and the different love for the game and building those relationships and bonds.
And I think, you know, my dad definitely, you know, had me involved in them. So when I actually, when I played when I was nine and 10 years old, I was in Toronto. Um, the first junior Canadians when they first switched from a double a program to a triple a program.
That was my, my first years of triple a hockey in the Toronto area. And my, my dad was the head coach and my grandfather was our trainer. Um, so he was an ambulance driver in Toronto at the time and dedicated his time.
So it's like I was surrounded by family, right? And, uh, kind of got me started in the sport and, um, you know, I didn't have my dad as a coach all the way up. To kind of help provide guidance.
Um, so he'd suck me in in the summer times in the summer hockey programs and it's kind of neat even today, like some of the kids that I coached as a student coach in the summer times with my dad. I now see as parents along the way right now. Um, you know, they've got kids that are growing up in or in their draft years coming up and other things.
And they call me and ask for advice and their kids and I literally, you know, coached, uh, you know, I had kids at an early age. So I'm a little ahead and have learned the lessons already. Um, and even next teammates of mine that have kids now that are, you know, 14, 13, 14, 15 coming up.
It's kind of neat to, to, to circle back.
[Jason]
One of the things that I ponder, it's a little bit of a kind of chicken and egg because it, it seems like, um, a lot of people, smart hockey people talk about how important environment is to development, but then those same people, or maybe it's not the same people, but an equal amount of smart hockey people, let's say, talk about how you should be hands off and you should take your kids lead and, you know, let your kid guide and be there to support. Right.
But if the best comes out of being around the right environment, um, but you want the kid to lead, um, like the kid doesn't isn't equipped to be able to seek out the right environment. Right. And so it just feels like a bit of a chicken and egg right around, um, like letting the kid lead, but also providing the environment.
How, how do you, what's your advice for how to navigate that tension and how do you think about it.
[Trevor]
That's a great question. I, you know, and I think part of it, um, part of it depends on the environment you're talking about and what's available to the, to the plant, to parent and, um, you know, I guess I would say, you know, for the most part what I've seen at the younger ages is if, if the, if a hockey parent, you know, that played the game is able to help create the environment that's positive. Fantastic.
Right. Like you run with it. You can be.
Um, and I think that parent coaching often gets a mislabel at the youth level because people are so focused on like, Oh, they get the ice time or they get preferential treatment, right. Having a, we want a non parent coach that's thinking about the whole group. And I think a lot of times what gets lost in that is that a lot of times a, you know, a good hockey person that can create a positive environment for everybody is way more valuable.
Right. Then those two minutes or two shifts that you may perceive as they're getting favorable treatment on. Right.
Um, you know, so I think that, you know, always, you know, I give parents the advice I give all of them is like you go where the coaching is and where the good people are. Right. You surround yourself with good people.
And once your kid is in that environment, if you're able to step away as a dad and be a, you know, our parent and be a parent, fantastic. Right. You let the player can gain some independence.
Um, and they can, they can run with it. If you bring value and can add to that environment, then be involved. Right.
And as a hockey coach or parent or whatever you are in that scenario, then you've got to learn how to separate hockey coach from dad in that moment. Right. And provide that.
So, you know, it's a tricky one because you bring the emotions of being a parent involved in the coaching. But for me, it's just all about the environment surrounding and being, you know, in the best place you can from a development standpoint and both that. And when I say that, I think, you know, like what I mean by development environment is both on and off the ice, right, from a character standpoint, how they're treated the organizational skills mean a lot.
Right. I think that's one of the most overlooked areas of the youth hockey areas, how the programs are managed, which creates a certain environment. Right.
If you have a disorganized environment that's unprofessional, it does create a level of chaos. Right. And chaos breeds dysfunction in a lot of ways in the youth hockey world.
So, um, you know, it's a tough question. You're right. It's absolutely a double edged sword and kind of a, you know, a times people can be contradictory, I guess, in their advice.
But again, I think it just all comes down to the people involved.
[Jason]
I want to ask a similar question around, um, you know, you have all these storied, whether it's a club or a prep school or, I mean, even, you know, climbing a ladder, but, but take a school like Shaddick, for example, or a program like Honeybake or the Mission or the Penguins Elite or right. How much of the success of these programs? And I'm not asking about any one specific one because I'm sure the answer varies, but generally how much of it is about development in your observation versus just recruiting the best talent and then not taking credit, but, but I think receiving credit because look how good we are.
Right. So it's like, how much of that development is happening internally versus just plucking kids from wherever they are that are already the best.
[Trevor]
I mean, that's a great question. Obviously, none of the none of the programs that are mentioned. Let me reword that.
So some of the programs mentioned, right, run programs from eight, you, right, or younger all the way up and others don't. Right. So, but there is different types of development that happened at different times of the players careers.
Right. So I don't want to discredit a program that maybe is bringing players in at 1415 in the development that they do provide. Because the culture and the development at those ages is critical to the players ability to continue to progress, right, especially in a lead athlete, one that's maybe ahead of the curve.
They face a different set of challenges, right, like there's pressure and there's, you know, outside pressures beyond just their own pressures on themselves to perform that need to be navigated and need to be developed. And I think sometimes getting the best out of those athletes at that level is just as difficult as developing maybe a player that's underdeveloped at that point, right, and trying to get them to catch up maybe to an elite group. So everything's different, but the programs that do like start from the bottom, you know, and do build a player from that youth, you know, might squirt level up.
You know, I give them a lot of credit. And it's something that I, that was why I came to Pittsburgh in the first place. I was to lead that type of mission here in Pittsburgh.
I thought it was holistic. I thought it was the best, right, like the bottom of the funnel. And that's what I've been in charge of here for a long time.
And it's, can you have organic development, right, where kids are playing the game in an advanced level because of what you did. When they first learned how to play real hockey, right. So that then, and to be honest, Jason, that's why I'm coaching the team that I'm coaching today, right, the 14 new team was my first team and group of players that I had here in Pittsburgh when I came here in 2018.
[Jason]
So I came here, they were like, was it the old fires or something that you had from, from like dev program all the way through midgets.
[Trevor]
So I had the 2000 birth year at honey, at honeybaked. So from literally from squirt minor at a minor through midgets. That was, I learned a lot.
I made a lot of mistakes in that process, right. And, you know, I went through that process and I think we ended up as we got to midgets, we ended up with about six original players from day one to the end. And it was like in Detroit, that was like an accomplishment, you know.
And if I look back at those rosters, there was a lot more than that that succeeded in hockey. But there's kids in that, you know, again, just the natural churn of high level AAA hockey, it was, it was hard to, to continue to be patient through that process, especially in Detroit, where you had a lot of competition for players, right. So, you know, you're battling Caesars and Compuware and Dell tire and these guys for your players every year.
And it was, that was an accomplishment. In Pittsburgh, it's a little different. We, we don't have the same level of internal competition in the city for the player.
You know, so I'm, I, I don't have the exact stat in front of me, but I believe from this group here, we have about 12 right now of the original, you know, kind of groups within Penn's elite. You know, to me, can you develop, like that's a true test of like athlete development is, you know, you take kids at those younger ages and can you continue to, to bring them along, even though you have some variables that you don't control, right? Like genetics is not one that we control it in this process.
You know, and it's a true test of, you know, can you survive, you know, the, the evolution of physical maturation at the highest level and, and still, you know, have players that play the game with their brain and their skill at just such a high level that they can overcome that sometimes. So anyway, I guess I'm getting, you get me on to a whole soap box there and it didn't really answer the question directly. I think that some of those programs do a better job than others of being patient with their athletes and actually truly developing versus just recruiting and showcasing them.
You know, and I guess that's, we try to, you know, believe here that, that holistically we're doing the right things every day, but I'm not going to lie and say we don't recruit players, right? Like the end of the day, you need talent to be at the highest level in the sport at this level. And, you know, there's certain players and people that are looking for a certain type of product for their player and their families, and then there's others that don't fit, right?
And I think it's just important that within that process, you stick to what you believe in, you know, and here we believe in education. We believe in off ice development, on ice development. You know, when we have a certain program that's set up to, to mirror those beliefs, right?
And sometimes they, they fit people and sometimes they don't.
[Jason]
Well, I'm going to have a tough time picking the next question because my intellectual curiosity is pulling me in multiple directions, given this kind of fertile ground that we've landed on. But, but I'll, I'll take a stab. When I watch some of these higher level AAA teams, sometimes you just watch a team and you're like, man, that is a well-oiled machine.
Like they're crisp on the breakout. They're moving without the puck. It almost feels like, like synchronized swimming or something, right?
It's like, you're like, like fighter jets, like moving in formation. In, in your view, how much of that has to do with systems, how much of that has to do with, with, like guardrails and, and also how much that is healthy versus unhealthy, given that. If there's too much structure, right?
It can, it can maybe optimize for winning at the expense of development, creativity, risk taking, et cetera.
[Trevor]
So another loaded question there. I would say the mentality of the team and how they, they practice definitely dictates, you know, how they're going to play. You can definitely tell the teams that have a high, high level of structure and then coaching staffs that hold players extremely accountable to the structure, right?
Because you see the, you know, the repeatability of certain types of movement patterns, right? And then you can see ones that are laid, look a little more pre-flowing and creative at times, right? And risky at times.
And I think you can tell then what that organization is working on, right? Or that coach is working on. And, you know, how you can tell typically by the movement patterns, if coaches are involving a lot of small area games or competitions that require thinking and change of position versus very struck.
You know, systematic play, right? Like, so again, I'm in favor of developing the brain with the skill set. You know, I think if you come watch a 14 new Penns Elite team, you're going to see, I can promise you, you will see, you know, great passing high risk involved at times.
To a point where I'm probably like, given the eye roll or like, you know, the oh my look on the bench at times. And just trying to balance that risk taking with, you know, what we would call picking the right place, which is a player driven exercise, right? So what I would hope, like in today's game, if you watch an NHL game or a college game, you see a ton of inner changing positions and the attempt to create chaos offensively, right?
And then defensively the attempt to limit chaos, right? And to try to get the puck back. That's typically what's seen at the highest levels of hockey.
What I hope continues to trickle down into the youth levels is a mirroring of that mentality, right? And I think the ADM models really helped with that overall, right? I do believe that the introduction at the youngest ages of half ice hockey and much more pushing of small area games and development through that has created an acceptance of chaos being being okay.
It doesn't mean the defensive structure isn't important for a player to learn. And then decision making is important for them to learn. And so to me, when I watch these high level teams, like you said, I scout for a living and I also coach at these levels for a living.
Then when I watch teams that are extremely structured, don't take any risk, make zero plays within a hockey game. And yeah, they maybe win two to one. I'm not overly excited about their player pool, whereas I see another team that the player seems to manage their risk, but also makes plays.
I'm like, okay, that player, that's impressive. He can play with team structure, but he can also pick his spots and make the right play at the right time. Then you have the extreme opposite of that, where you have a player that plays pure one-on-one, wants to toe drag everybody and slip through the triangle over and over again with no remorse, you know, that he just lost the puck over and over again.
And you question, okay, like, is the coach really teaching hockey at that point, which is a five-on-five game where you have to mitigate attack mode versus possession and risk versus non-risk, right? It's no different than a soccer or basketball game in those terms, right? So, to me, that's what I'm looking for, and I hope that youth hockey in America continues to grow and be taught as that versus just a complete structural old school try not to get scored on game.
[Jason]
I mean, to use an analogy in a world that I'm more familiar with, like, startup investing, I think there's kind of one school of investors that says, like, there's no substitute for, like, sitting in person and, you know, it's all a people bet, and it's like, you know, models and decks, and that's not so important. Like, I need to look them in the eye, and I just know when I've got the horse that I want to bet on, right? I know, like, has access to all this data and, you know, lots of stuff that, like, you know, no matter what the person is, if the model says it, I'm going to make the bet, right?
I mean, like most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I want to bring that back to hockey, right? And I want to ask it both with your scouting hat on and with your coaching hat on how much in each of those is it got to be in person, got to see him live, like, you know, score sheets can lie, size charts can lie, like, I just want to watch versus like, hey, I'm going to watch, but I need to compliment that with this analytics or this, you know, elite prospects or, like, how do you, how do you think about the balance between that eyes versus data with both of those hats on the coaching hat and scouting hat?
[Trevor]
Yeah, I couldn't agree more that I think it's a balance between the two. So in the youth game, the biggest challenge there is the variance in the opponents, right, that they're playing against in the leagues and levels, right? So you're, if everybody was on the exact same playing field and the data analytics would then show, you know, across the board map against similar competition or different, you know, levels of player, you could probably use the data analytics to, you know, players, you know, creating but because of the variance, right, in the scouting world, that makes it very difficult to use against other potential players in other markets. It does make it comparable against their peers within their own league or group, right? So I guess we do use both.
What I like to say is, I mean, in person, you'd get a really good feel for the nonmeasurables, which are attitude, you know, effort level, interaction with teammates and coaches. You know, there is a certain feel to that that does matter within the culture of a hockey team, right? And, you know, but in the end, I think it is incredibly important to recognize that, you know, ability to impact the game statistically.
Not just goals and assists, but in other ways is, you know, if you're ignoring that in today's game, your team is probably not meeting or exceeding your expectations, right? Because it is a validation against your eye test to tell you and it helps you ask questions, right? If a player looks like he is smart and makes offensive plays, but then doesn't generate statistically the questions, why, right?
Like, what are they not doing? What is keeping them back? And that could be a physical limitation, could be line mates, you know, could be structure, could be like you talked about in the last question of maybe the type of style they're playing and maybe a new style would change that and bring the best out of them.
But it does let you ask the question so that you can be, you know, more prepared in your player analysis. So we definitely use both, like in Dubuque, we definitely use all the tools available to us to evaluate our player pool and track players, but we definitely don't pick solely or choose solely based on those metrics alone. So I was just in Minnesota this weekend, getting the eye test right of Minnesota High School.
I was in the Northeast PAC event the week before here watching AAA 18U to 14U. You know, in a couple of weeks, I'll be in over in your neck of the woods watching prep school hockey, you know, and seeing some of the teams at those levels. And so you can kind of get a better gauge as far as the level of play and then how much the statistics really mean, you know, once you kind of have that feel.
[Jason]
I mean, this is related to a topic we covered a little earlier, but I don't feel quite resolved on it. And so I'm going to bring it up again. And it's about self direction.
And, and I asked because I'm an entrepreneur, right, in my world, like, no one's telling me to do anything. There's nothing for me to keep up with. I'm starting from a blank slate and I have to be self motivated every day to try to create something out of nothing.
And so I learned how to be incredibly self directed. But if you put me into a system, or, in other words, like a big company, right, where I'm like a cog in the wheel and I follow a program and I have guardrails and I can't go where I want when I want. And right, like, I'm not going to last, right.
Now, let's bring that back around to hockey. Everyone talks about how they want players that are self directed, right? It's like, you know, high compete level passion for the, or maybe they don't say self directed, they say high compete level and passion for the game, right?
And I think you even said that on some prior episodes I've listened to. But here's what I worry about, right? As a parent, you want to create the right environment to end up running around creating the right environment because it's like, well, this would help build more holistic development.
So it's like a one stop shop and, like, far more efficient and easier for the family, better for the kid, more time for studies, and it's like, okay, that's great. But then you kind of get institutionalized, right, because you talk about long term in the life path. Now take all that structure away.
And what is the athlete left with, like to get out of the D1 program or whatever, right? And, like, now there's no handlers, right? And it's like, oh, like, I need to, like, create my own schedule and be my own, like, trainer, like, I never learned how to do that, right?
And so, I guess, as a parent or as a coach, like both, what do you look for, but also, what do you want to instill? Because I feel like sometimes being coachable and being a good team in and being part of a system is at odds with building, like, like, an independent self-motivated human.
[Trevor]
Yeah, I mean, that's a holistic, huge question there. I think there's a balance between both, right, that you got to find. I think that personally, like, you know, young athletes or young people in general, like my kids and others, you, while you want them to be ambitious and you want them to have their own voice, right, and own, like, work ethic and dreams.
And the reality is they still, like, that's something that I think long-term in life is probably earned, right, through some discipline and work ethic and following timelines and instructions, right? So, again, like, I don't think you can jump to that step right away, right? I think this is probably something that, like, you've earned the opportunity through hard work and life.
You had to show up to class on time, you know, you had to do certain things to get to where you're at to earn the opportunity to kind of maybe freelance and have that. I think that, you know, to me, the young athlete and the young player, not necessarily always ready for that day one, right, they earn a longer leash both on the ice, right, and in life over time. So, to me, you know, the structure of making sure that they have self-discipline and that they're building good life habits and every player is different, right?
And it's something that we, you know, I give my coaching staff and Dubuque a lot of credit for Evan Dixon's really good at sitting and talking and asking the player, like, what's important to them? What are their routines that fit them within the team's structure routines? Like, we don't have a, you have to be on time.
That's not negotiable, right? You have to be on time. Now, your individual goals for the day and what you want to get better at is negotiable.
It doesn't mean that within the team structure they don't have things they're working on. They absolutely do. But conversations about areas of their own development and things they want to do and how the coaching staff could support that.
Those happen. Those discussions happen. They get written down.
They get, you know, and then the athlete is provided with opportunities to then try to grow personally, right? So I think there's a mix and that has to happen. I believe at the youth levels as well, which is that conversation between coaches, parents, player, like, where the athlete takes the lead, right?
Like, no, I think this is an area that I'm passionate about. This is something I want to get better at. How can you help me, right?
Like, to me, that's like real growth, but it is maybe not the norm. And part of it's just like time. Like, I do think in a lot of the youth levels, it's, you know, coaching staff that just, they're busy, right?
And they're running around and they make a practice plan and they make an idea for their team. And we're going to play a two, one, two this, you know, this year. And we're going to play this way in the neutral zone.
We're going to play this way in the D zone. And then this player is going to play left wing the entire year. And he's going to become a master at it, you know, not going to move him around.
I'm not going to let him play a different position. I'm never even going to ask him. You know, I think that doesn't happen much at the youth level.
And I think it's probably something in young player development that has to just that collaboration needs to take place. But I do think that structure within the young players development as far as like the self-discipline to learn how to show up on time with the right mentality is important, right? You know, and I guess the double edged sword that and what you're saying, Jason, that I'm kind of getting at is a it is a slippery slope and difficult to like not suck passion, right?
Out of a player. Well, providing that structure, you know, so that's the tricky slope, right? Because of the lack of like pond hockey and stuff in America, which is what the weather is just not feasible, right?
There's not enough stick time and stuff like that. It's difficult to like not suck that out of them well. Also providing that like discipline structure for an athlete's development.
[Jason]
The narrative is confusing for me. I'll explain. It's like food is fun.
If it's not fun, we don't do it. You always need to keep it fun every step of the way. You can't force it upon them, right?
And it's like, but in long term, like, you know, athletics and academics go hand in hand for a life path. It's like, all right, well, let's talk about school. Like what percentage of the kids like school?
Probably not a high percentage, right? Well, why do they do it? Because we make them do it.
Well, why is it okay to make them do school and not sports, right? It's like, and then it's like, you know, we cuddle kids today like we baby them and then, you know, and then it's like, when I was a kid, like I had a job at age six, right? And it's like, oh, okay.
Well, then why are you so worried about like, it's got to be fun. It's like, like, what's wrong with a little like, like, like high expectations and structure the same way that we are about school, right? And where's that line?
Because it is a long road. I get it. And if the joy is not there, it's not going to sustain.
But like, then why don't we let them do the same thing with school? If that's really what we believe.
[Trevor]
You're spot on. I think it's, you know, and to me, again, I go back to creating, like for the coach, creating expectations of, you know, some listening skills, discipline, but the environment still being fun is the art to coaching, especially at the young ages, right? It's not, it's not a, that is really what it's about.
It's how you operate within the environment and the attitude and the feeling. And then obviously the structure of what you're teaching at what rate, you know, and how restrictive it can be, which then sucks the fun out of it at times, right? So, you know, I think that that is the art of coaching, especially at the younger levels is, you know, it's really child psychology.
Like, if you look at the young kids at the youngest ages, how do you get kids to have more fun playing the game at eight, nine, ten? Well, there's one puck giant ice surface, right? If it doesn't get shared and they're not interacting together, no different than a schoolyard.
If you had one basketball out on the schoolyard, right, and nobody shared it, didn't play together, kids would just quit playing basketball, even if there was no adult there, right? They would just walk away. They'd be like, this sucks.
I don't want to play with you anymore, you know? So, to me, it's how do you get those kids to naturally play the game together, right? How is that environment created?
If they have fun sharing the puck, making plays, interacting together, and the coach creates an environment that teaches that concept, so creating two on ones, creating, right? Puck possession situations. How do you get the puck back?
How do you think there's an environment that's created that's competitive that sucks the juice, you know, either puts juice into it or either sucks it out of it, right? That's the art of coaching, I believe, at these youth levels, even at the top levels, the teams that play the best have a natural level of passion that gets created in the environment, right? So, I don't know if you disagree or agree with that comment, but it's not easy to do, especially when you evolve parent egos, coach egos, right?
They want to win. My hockey rankings just got to look good, right? And that's the hard component of it, is there's those pressures within the sport, especially at the higher levels, that for certain individuals that are coaching the sport, they can't balance them very well.
[Jason]
So, I'm going to push on some more double-speak, while we're on the double-speak topic. So, like, don't get too caught up if your kid is super good when they're 10, because the best 10 isn't the best 12, and the best 12 isn't the best 15, and on and on and on. So, that's kind of one narrative, right?
And the other narrative is, you know, the outliers, like they always had a little something from the earliest ages, like, look at Connor McDavid, look at this clip when he was 10, right? And as the path is getting harder and harder, right, in order to stay on the path, you're having to kind of bend the environment, right, to accommodate the path, which increasingly strays from like the normal path, right? And so, as a family, how do you balance, like, preserving the optionality of progressing in the sport with, especially given that you don't know what you have with, like, unrealistic dreams, projecting your parent dreams on your kids, like, you know, dad goggles, believing you have something you don't, right?
Like to, like, just stay in your lane, like the sport should be fun for you and every other one who's not not lying, you know, like the other kid down there, right? Like, like, how do you, I don't know, I find a heart, not my kids, I'm not saying my kid's going anywhere, he's not, right? But I'm just saying, or I shouldn't say that in case he's listening, but like, you know, it's not because I even aspire, it's just, it's just like, I just want to help him reach his fullest form, and the life path and the hockey path, I know that it's done right, they go together, but increasingly it feels like they're at odds.
[Trevor]
I don't think that's any different in any other sport, really, like, I think that all of them...
[Jason]
Or musician, or acting, right?
[Trevor]
Correct, anything. I think that it's, you know, depending on your aspirations and when you, like, use non-clouded goggles and you take a real self-assessment, right? And where you're at in this process, trying to find the right place for your athlete to continue to develop both as a person and an athlete.
You know, I think that in today's world, it's become, you know, more difficult probably than ever, right? And as costs of everything kind of rise, and again, I don't think that's necessarily just specific to hockey when it comes to that, even though hockey is an expensive sport. You know, it is tough.
It's some tough life choices, right? And I guess what I can say, my feeling would be that if you do have options where you can still continue to be a parent and have oversight of... And in relationship with your player, that, you know, for first and foremost, probably should be taken into consideration.
And if that's not available, then try to make sure you're finding an environment that does provide a holistic development opportunity for them, both on and off the ice. Like, that's my biggest piece is, you know, just be careful about chasing athletics only, right? Just make sure it has, when you're checking boxes and you're looking at these things for your athlete, that you're looking at it holistically from a parent lens.
It's not just a hockey parent lens, you know. So, but it is that's a tricky one to navigate in today's world. And unfortunately, in most of the country, the local, just purely local, stay local option is become more difficult to find good options in, right?
So now people are looking, but if you look at it in like a whole world perspective, I mean, jobs have turned that way too, right? So more and more people are working remote and traveling and doing different things. So I don't know if it's just like unique to just sport, right?
Like it might be a just new way of people are less afraid of shifting around for what they want, whether that's in life and work or life, life and sport or with their kids. I think it's, you know, people become more mobile and able to do things from different places. So, you know, I, but again, I think it all goes back to that environment.
You just, it's where are you going to get better both on? Like, does an athlete in a person every day and value that the most? That's, that's my feeling on it.
[Jason]
Well, this next topic is a lot, lot less of a of an existential one and a lot more tactical. I've heard you say before that you think IQ can be taught. I, my assessment is, and I'd love for you to agree or just, you know, weigh in on your thoughts because who knows if my assessment is right?
That's why I'm talking to smart people like you on the show. But, but is that your team is limited, but there's just not enough bandwidth, like, you know, couple skates a week, right? There's, there's too much basic stuff.
It's like the team needs to work on the team stuff, right? And then even if you're off doing stuff on your own, which of course most people are at the higher levels, right? They, it's like the stuff you're working on is the more visible stuff.
It's like edges or the strength or speed or, uh, uh, shooting, right? But there's a lot that kind of falls through the cracks, if you will, right? That might be breakout timing.
That might be, uh, like scanning before the puck gets to you. That might be when to be patient and when to be aggressive. That might be, uh, you know, like, it might be a lot of things, right?
But that there's, there's a lot in that kind of like a grabout bucket that just falls through the cracks and I'm calling that IQ. So before I ask you if it can be taught, I just want to stop there. I'm curious, does that match what you're seeing and how you think about IQ as well?
[Trevor]
I'm a big believer that like when we talk about hockey IQ, right? The hockey IQ is decision making ability, ability to read the play, um, the ability to make proper decisions. Um, I really think that those skill sets and what I say is can be taught.
Um, typically what I mean by that is it can be taught. Like some people say it's like, oh, you're born with it or you're not, right? The player has hockey IQ or they don't.
People have people learn how to think in life, right? Like you take them to, to preschool and they know nothing about the process of school and what they're supposed to do. And then they learn, you know, how to do math.
They learn how to do lots of different things. All your decision making skills. I think it's taught at the youngest ages.
And I think one of the biggest challenge that we have in this sport a lot of times is that the, the environments that the kids get put in at when they first start playing. Don't focus on the ability to continue to put the player in an environment that forces them to think and then understand the why component of what they're doing, right? And I think this can be taught at the young age.
It doesn't mean every player is going to be advanced at it and become great, but it certainly can be taught at the youngest ages, in my opinion. And I don't think it's focused on enough. I think that, you know, skating development has to happen, right?
You can't skate. You can't play this game. You know, that's, that's a given, puck skills, et cetera.
Like they have to come along. But the ability to use them all revolves around decision making skills. The entire game is a, is just a, a constant test of decision making skills and hockey IQ.
And that's, I do think that at the younger ages, putting the players in as many environments as possible. Like with an environment that's over and over again, with a purpose, teaches those skill sets. Once they're older and they're ingrained, it's no different than trying to retrain a teenage child that's never been taught how to put their clothes in the hamper, right?
It's a, or do put their dishes away, right? It's very difficult to teach common sense to a person that's never had to, you know, to learn those skills when they were younger, right? it takes along.
It goes back to habits, right, and trying to retrain those. So I personally think that doesn't mean that it's not up for debate. I think that there's different levels of hockey IQ.
There's some people that have intuition and like see things ahead of time that are just advanced and then there's ones that are way less advanced at it. And as the game gets harder and you get to the junior level, that stuff becomes more and more rare to find elite hockey brains and thinkers just because the environment is that much more difficult to test that skill even more, right? So I don't know, Jason, you agree or disagree on that?
[Jason]
I think it makes good sense to me. I think what I'm curious about is, I mean, you talk about environment and ingraining it in like how you run a practice and doing drills that are more translatable to a game environment, things like that. That makes perfect sense.
What I'm wondering is how much of it requires being on the ice with a group of players and how much of it can be done remotely and out of the things that can be done remotely, how much of it needs to be watching yourself from games and how much of it can be from watching others or some other form of teaching. And the example I would use in this gets to some of the stuff I'm thinking about building, right, is like language learning, right? I mean, clearly, the best way to learn a language is immersion, like just go move to the country.
And if you want to function in that country, you got to learn. And so like, if you want to go to the supermarket, if you want to order a sandwich, if you want to order a taxi, if you want to do anything, you have to learn, right? And so it's like, well, there's motivation, right?
Like their self-direction, right? Because it's survival, right? But there's apps now, like Duolingo, for example, that like, you know, they just give you a little snackable stuff and they gamify it and they kind of just kind of suck you in and get you're doing more and more of it.
And the next thing you know, like, it might not be the same as immersion, but like, you at least have a baseline where you can function in a way that's far better than if it didn't exist, right? And so I'm kind of poking at, you know, what might be possible on the IQ front in high touch human ways or in, you know, fully technology ways and where there might be value of any.
[Trevor]
I would say that it's a mixture of both that you can do office education through, you know, video analysis and other things like that. I would say again, like the habits are formed when the kids are the youngest, when they first start playing the game, there's a mentality that gets created within a player. You know, we talk about we versus me type at a, you know, in hockey, right?
Players that develop right from day one as a we type player that's constantly trying to include others, share, make plays with others, that's their mentality, right? They typically scan more, right? They're typically more aware of their surroundings because they care, right?
Typically, the player that's me driven, more puck focused, want to just score have limited care level, right? Of the environment around them. So I do think creating that from day one, where there's, you know, I don't want to say your brainwash them, but you're basically through repetition, right?
Trying to create as many of those players with that mentality as possible that they care about having fun with their friends, right? And so again, a lot of whether it's two on O's and two on ones and three on ones or three on O's or, you know, certain passing sequences that lead to something fun where the player thinks it's cool, you know, to be a good friend and a good, the teammate, I think that helps. Then you add the video component of teaching, you know, those little moments that you were working on and showing them, okay, this is what this creates and this is awesome.
And again, you're, you're creating a mentality within a player as they get older, showing video, but doing it in a way that's constructive. A lot of people use video to show what went wrong, right? Instead of consuming to use it for positive teaching moments, like you got to be very careful about that, especially with young players, you know, of using it to shame them, right?
You want video to be positive with them and show them doesn't mean you don't teach within it, but I think it's important to make sure that you're using it properly. The one piece of video, and this was, you know, if you think about the video, where the video is located, right? Like live barn might be at a decent level, right?
Parent video up in the stands is at a different level. That is not how a player sees the game, right? The eyeballs are in front of you, you're immersed in it.
So the view of video is misleading, and it is not, while it can show what happened, it is not good at teaching what is going to happen, right? And what the player is actually seeing. So to me, like the next evolution of IQ development would be some type of camera or something that would show an actual view of what a player is seeing, right?
So like, again, we've tested some of this in Pittsburgh, just like for fun, putting a 360 helmet camera, one of the parents had one, one time and like trying to video like a breakout sequence and what they're actually seeing. I've seen some studies where people are studying scanning and the frequency of scanning. And if you look at like some of them, there's some technology out there now with glasses that show the eyes and where the eyes are looking, right on the eye surface.
And it'll give, it gives people a real good view of how hard it is to see the entire eye surface at the speed the game has played and the decisions that take place in it. And I do think that that stuff, as we go through time here, just like we've seen other technologies evolve, will definitely help development of hockey IQ at the younger ages. And you see some of the VR, right, cameras and stuff now, like where people are wearing headsets for some hockey development stuff in scenarios.
I do think some of that will probably help be able to train players at least to have already seen and be able to study environments that they get themselves in on a high frequency rate to make better decisions within that doesn't mean it's going to change it and take away from like practice environment being critical. But I think it will help.
[Jason]
I would venture to guess, but I want, I want you to weigh in that a very low percentage of hockey teams are coached in the way that you're describing from the youngest ages.
[Trevor]
Is that like, I would say it's under 10% probably.
[Jason]
Okay, so here's the question. For that other 90%, right? And sure, a lot of them just aren't serious enough to care, right?
But for from that 90%, whichever percentage of it is serious enough to care and wants it, is the only way to get it to go find a team that has it or is there away? And this is what my founder had on to package that recipe that the 10% gets and deliver it in a way that might not be as good as if you have the whole immersive experience on your core team, but it's a lot better than not having it as a service. It might be in person, it might be online, it might be a mix of both that might be, you know, digital only, it might be machines, it might be human, it might be a mix of both.
I don't know. But like, can you package that recipe and, and, and open it up to those beyond the team who want it in a lighter weight way?
[Trevor]
Great question. I would say maybe parts of it potentially, right? Like from a, from a like practice structure and planning, like almost I could, you could say like almost guidebook, right?
You could probably create some additional, you know, ways with technology to, to include things that would definitely help the, you know, if you look, I think about it, a lot of the people that are coaching at the younger ages that are developing these core skills are people that haven't coached before, right? They're usually parents of kids who, and God bless these people that are, that are volunteering their time to take on an extremely difficult and time consuming task, right? So I know USA hockey has made a lot of efforts to try to educate them through their, you know, coaching education programs and other things.
I think from the technology side as far as like athlete development, there's probably, you know, ways that I know people have tried video coaching and little apps that have been used for all this stuff like that. Some of it helps a lot. Some of it is confusing, right?
To the player. But I think like the, the hardest piece, Jason, is like, this is still like a people relationship culture type of building exercise, right? Like I don't know if you can fully, fully take that, that environment and, and create something that would replace it other than the human touch, right, in the artistry of building positive environments and relationships.
I think it is, it is pretty difficult, but I think you could definitely like provide some additional help and training and substance to it.
[Jason]
So for all the hockey families out there that are trying to assess where their kids should play, I mean, you can look a coach in the eye and you can say like, are they saying the right things? Do I like them? Do I trust them?
You know, do they like, do the family seem happy? Like, you know, kind of some common sense human stuff. But when it comes to this stuff that you're talking about, what advice do you have for parents that maybe don't come from the game on how to assess?
[Trevor]
Yeah, I would, I would look at the history and reputation, right? Like if they've, if they have one in the game. So players and families that have played for them before that you trust, you know, and not necessarily even always questions on their hockey coaching ability, but you know, how are they with the kids?
What happens when they lose, you know, like how do they handle the referees? You know, how do they, you know, what is their general interaction? How are their communication skills?
You know, do they provide feedback and, and do they, you know, are they approachable? I think that those things are, are all critical for parents as they look at it. You know, and then I think, you know, looking at the practice environment, right?
Is it, you know, what, what is, what are the focuses? You know, is, is it, is the player appearing to have fun and learn and be taught during the, the session or session? So I mean, these days with live barn and, and other things, you can typically find if there was a coach that's been coaching, you could probably figure out how to watch, you know, some of the environment and see how the players are treated and, and what's going on with it?
Is it age appropriate? You know, you know, and then leverage resources of, you know, hockey people in the area that maybe would know, right? And no different than if you were going to interview them for a job or bring them into your team at work, like try to do a little bit of research on, on their upbringing and them as a person.
So, you know, I think all those things are important to, to consider for young, you know, for parents looking at, you know, what programs are good for their kids. You know, and I know it's a difficult task, you know, but you just try to vet it to make sure that the environment is going to be as positive as humanly possible. I think if your player every year is like loving the sport more, the following season, that's an undervalued piece of this.
And I think Jason, you've talked about your own son a little bit, right? Like a lot of players, it's just about continuing to love it and get better and better and better. And as they get older, they have an opportunity then to maybe take it even to the next level.
If a player is already advanced and is getting that environment already, then, you know, great for them, right? That's fantastic. But I do think that that trying to make sure that the environment first and foremost is a positive one where the player can love the game and continue, because again, you said it earlier, like if a player loves the sport and loves going to practice and the environment is positive, they're going to learn on their own just as much as they're probably going to learn from the coach, you know, throughout that experience. So that's tricky one, though.
[Jason]
I'm so grateful for the time we had. I mean, I wish we had another hour, but I know we've got a wrap here. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did or any parting words for listeners?
[Trevor]
I'm glad we didn't get into the NCAA rule change or any of that other stuff.
[Jason]
Oh, we can do a whole episode just on that. Yeah, the portal and the major years and if the USA is going to merge, I saw that rumor today. Oh, yeah.
[Trevor]
Yeah, that's a lot to talk about on that front. And I, you know, I think that's are you guys going to beat the rough?
[Jason]
The is it a cedar, cedar rapids home and our tribal down the road.
[Trevor]
That's a big one. We got a big game on Saturday against Cedar Rapids and then Mark Carlson. So we got Green Bay Friday night, you know, and no, just I'm thankful for you having me on.
And I hope that I provided some insight you asked some great questions that are that are tough ones to answer. You know, and I think that again, parting words are just surround yourself with great people, right? And the more you can do that, I know it's a cliche, but the more you can do that, the better off your your player is going to be the happier you're going to be as a hockey parent.
You know, and live, I said in the last big podcast that I did with Tofur, like you just got to live in the moment of staying positive and continuing to encourage people to get better every day. And we use the term win the day in Dubuque. That's our motto.
We try to do it every single day just over and over again on repeat and I think if you do that, good things are going to happen for you.
[Jason]
That is a great place to end. So Trevor, thanks so much for coming on. Best of luck this weekend.
And yeah, I really appreciate your perspective and and everything you do for the game.
[Trevor]
Thank you Jason. Good luck to you.
[Jason]
Thanks for listening to Puck Academy. If you enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with someone serious about their game. See you next week.