In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs talks with Andy Jones, head coach of Bentley University's Division I men's ice hockey team. Jones, who led Bentley to its first Atlantic Hockey Championship, shares his insights on player development, coaching philosophies, and the importance of unstructured play. They discuss Jones' career journey and his approach to balancing academics and athletics. Jacobs and Jones also explore broader topics in youth hockey, including the barriers to entry and the role of structured versus unstructured environments in cultivating creativity and passion for the game.
In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs welcomes Andy Jones, head coach of Bentley University's Division I men's ice hockey team. Jones shares insights from his journey and coaching philosophy, emphasizing the importance of unstructured play, passion, and effort in player development. He discusses the evolving landscape of hockey, including the increasing cost barriers and the rise of specialized training. Jones advocates for maintaining a balance between structured guidance and allowing creativity and instinct to flourish. He also touches on the challenges posed by the current system and the need to make hockey more accessible and affordable. The episode offers a thoughtful exploration of both individual and systemic approaches to improving the game.
00:00 The Magic of Unstructured Learning
00:25 Introduction to Andy Jones
01:34 Andy Jones' Journey and Achievements
03:39 The Importance of Passion and Love for the Game
06:48 Challenges in Modern Hockey Development
16:09 Balancing Academics and Athletics
19:24 Effort, Curiosity, and Culture in Coaching
22:43 Navigating the Evolving Landscape of College Hockey
29:24 Systems vs. Habits in Coaching
31:41 Understanding Defensive Concepts
32:28 The Role of Soft Skills in Hockey
33:05 Building Relationships in Coaching
35:19 The Importance of Unstructured Play
41:10 Balancing Structure and Freedom in Training
46:39 Leveraging Data and Analytics
55:16 Affordability and Accessibility in Hockey
58:58 Final Thoughts and Reflections
[Andy]
The unstructured environment, be it in the classroom or in the ice, that's really where the creativity grows, I think that's where some really unique learning grows, I think there's magic in that.
[Jason]
Welcome to Puck Academy, a show about how hockey players grow on and off the ice. I'm Jason Jacobs, the host. And each week I talk with players, coaches and experts shaping the future of player development.
Today's guest is Andy Jones, the head coach of Bentley University's Division I men's ice hockey team. He's entering his third season with Bentley, and he led them to their first Atlantic Hockey Championship in program history last season. During the run of the championship, they went 5-0 in the postseason and won at Holy Cross in the finals, 6-3 to earn a bid to the NCAA tournament, which was another first for the program.
Now, prior to coming to Bentley, he spent, he came in 2023, he spent five years as associate head coach at UMass Lowell during his time on the Riverhawk staff, which spanned eight seasons overall. They received three NCAA tournament bids, went to three Hockey East Championship games and won the 2017 Hockey East Championship. All told, he has more than 20 years of coaching experience at various levels, and 19 of his former players have gone on to compete in the NHL.
He also had a tenure as assistant coach at Clarkson and in the USHL with Sioux Falls, as well as his alma mater Amherst College from 2000 to 2005. Now, I was excited for this one because in addition to all of those things, Andy grew up in Minnesota, played for Minnetonka, public school kid. Mom was a teacher, went to Amherst College, Division III, was the captain there, and he's coached ever since at a variety of levels with a short stint in between early on in the corporate world for target corporation.
At any rate, we have a wonderful discussion in this episode about Andy's journey in sport. His journey as a coach is coaching philosophies. What he looks for in players, what's teachable and what's innate, how the game is evolving, and what the implications are for players, for families, for coaches, for programs and for the sport overall.
I really enjoyed this one and Andy's incredibly impressive. I'm excited to see what he can do in the program. His first few years, if there any indicator, meaning that Bentley's got a bright future.
I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. Andy, welcome to the show.
[Andy]
Happy to be here.
[Jason]
Happy to have you. Yeah, real excited, actually. Let's see.
I'll start with some of the reasons I'm excited. Well, one, you went to Amherst. I went to Wesleyan.
I was, I graduated a couple of years before you did, but, but similar time. And I played freshman year and quit two games in a sophomore year. So I don't think we would have ever played against each other, but, but still, a lot of commonality there.
I grew up in the Northeast, though, and, and went to a Northeast liberal arts school. You came from Minnesota. So very different spot and there's certainly fertile ground there to talk about it.
And then, of course, your path in the game and the seats that you're in and all the changes that are happening under your feet and everything that you're seeing and living. All that is just super relevant to, to what I'm trying to learn about and what my listeners are tuning in for. So super grateful for you making the time to come on and chat about it.
[Andy]
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation, Jason.
[Jason]
Well, for starters, I mean, I've heard some of this because, you know, because I did some prep and you've been on some other shows, but just talk a bit about about your path in the game and how you ended up at that small liberal arts school in Amherst, Massachusetts.
[Andy]
You know, I started playing hockey outside as you referenced from, from Minnesota. And if there's any repeat listeners to your show, I know you recently interviewed Mike See and I chuckled when he, he kind of, he was, he was very accurate when he stated that as a youngster, you can identify like your peer group and your friends with like what park you go to to play. Like, I can really relate to his comment about that.
And the one, the one that was in our neighborhood was Spring Hill Park in Minnetonka. Still there today. And that, that really is the origin story.
So I would, I go down there after school every day and play and my mom would call the warming house, say, send him home for dinner and I'd walk home for dinner and eat really fast and go back and then I'd be there until the lights went out. And that was the hockey season. From there, that's where, that's where soccer took place at the park.
That's where baseball, early, early community baseball took place. It's really was the origin story for, you know, from there. I, I think I grew a love for the game.
Obviously played a community hockey growing up and, and then high school hockey for Minnetonka and then from there. I was kind of, I was kind of headed towards like the junior USHL path. And it was a little different than because USHL teams had regions and rights.
And so you kind of knew like I was in the Austin Rochester rights area and, you know, I had had conversations. At the end of the day, I was getting recruited by Amherst College for hockey and then all of a sudden the baseball coach started recruiting me. And that was a little bit of a tipping point for me because I wasn't going to have a hard time giving that up.
I really enjoyed it. Still, still love baseball to this day. And then I had some, you know, my mom was a, my mom was an educator.
I didn't really know what Amherst was. I was a public high school kid that worked really hard for, for, for good marks, but I think it was my mom. And then there was a couple Amherst alums in the area.
And then just a couple of people that I respected, they kind of, I think they kind of leaned into me and said, Hey, if you have a chance to go here, you should, they didn't say you're not doing anything else, but they said you should probably go and boy were they, they were, they were right, you know, you, you miss out on an opportunity, but. That decision led to the next stage of my life. I played hockey and baseball there, earned a degree there, earned a graduate degree in town, met my wife there, started my coaching career there.
It's everything. So that's just a little bit of the path and the passion was ignited at Spring Hill Park.
[Jason]
Well, there's obviously a lot more to talk about with your journey, but, but I'm an impatient guy by nature. So I'm going to skip, skip to some of the juicy stuff here because I want to make sure we get that. We get, we get to cover it.
One is your coach got a really high level and. And I mean, tell me if you disagree, but it sure seems like the path is getting harder for us kids to play at that level. And, and I'm curious because it seems that a lot of the people that played at a high level coming up credit.
What you just said, the unstructured time, the pure joy, the always wanted to be out there with their success. It wasn't. Going to some quadruple elite, you know, factory when you're four, it wasn't professionalizing from the early stages.
It wasn't playing year round. It wasn't doing all the things that. seem to be required today to kind of be on the track to play at the level that you're currently coaching at.
And I'd love to just. Hear your thoughts on. I guess reflecting on that path coming up and how it largely doesn't exist for a lot of kids today and what the implications of that are.
[Andy]
I think you started out with passion and love and. I don't know how much passion and love is going to develop from. Like significant structure.
I don't like just as a general learning concept by. Perhaps some there can be some competitive juices that ignite in situations like that. However, I think the passion and the love that, you know, comes from just the pure enjoyment and there's nothing more pure than just plain for me was playing outside.
But there's different forms of that now. I think. You know, I think coaches at the youth level.
At higher levels, they. One of the bigger challenges is tapping into that passion while also trying to balance the expectations of performance, you know, at some, you know, at a higher level of winning. I think you have to have a rudder in the ground at some point and you have to stand for something.
For everybody that could mean something slightly different. I know what that means for me, but they're like. And so, but it can all be rules and structure and.
Because I just, I think that's going to suck more love and passion out of things than really like deliver. It's not a delivery model of passion and love, you know, so. I think the path that I explained.
You're right, it largely doesn't exist. It certainly exists in the state of Minnesota. It's easier to follow that path.
But. The other path that you referenced, I just don't have experience with other than just observing it from the outside. So.
And I think, you know, you referenced the free time. No matter what level you. Coach at.
Or lead at. I think you have to try to provide some of that time. You know, I can speak to the Bentley example here.
Our practices tend to be short and then they have were afforded a lot of ice time here. That's one of the blessings we have. And after practice, we have an unlimited amount of free time.
And sometimes guys use that for five minutes. Sometimes they might have a test that day and they just get right off to go finish their prep for that. And some days guys grab a coach and they're out there for 25, 30 minutes doing something and you know what.
It's messing around like playing a game, you know, screwing around with your body, trying something. I think those are all important, important ways to use that. So I went in a few different directions there, but.
It was, it was a pretty, it was a pretty broad question too. So if you, if you want to bring me back to somewhere else, you know, feel free to.
[Jason]
Yeah, well, I mean, one of the reasons I have trouble asking the same questions on this topic is because it kind of, it does pull it like. It is, yeah, there's kind of a lot of off to topics that are adjacent and related and some of them have nothing to do with sport. It's just kind of parenting in today's age, right?
But, but I'm going to try to press on that a little more because. You know, I'm here in the Northeast where, where Club Hockey rules the day and. And what I see around me to my left and to my right is that there's a lot of focus on.
Edge work, shooting, you know, film, strength, you know, private small group, like, you know, general skills, like, it's all about, like, getting better, right? But when Mike Sne came on the show, you know, he argued that actually, and he didn't use words, denominator, enumerator, but that's kind of how I think about it. You know, because to me, taking people who are already in the game and helping them progress faster and more effectively, that's like the numerator, right?
It's like the people that are already in the game. How do you, how do you get more than playing at a competitive level, right? And he argued actually until we get the sport on a path where the denominator, where we're getting more of the best athletes in any given region to play the sport, stick with the sport and love the sport, right?
If we just did that, forget about the numerator, you're going to have a lot more people coming out the other side because the denominator is so much bigger, let alone the cost and the logistics and the, you know, traveling all over and missing a ton of school and all these things that aren't accessible to so many families, whether the kid wants it or not. When you think, and this is less about an individual player, family, and more just about putting the game on a good path. I mean, which one of those speaks more to you and where do you think the biggest levers are for progress?
[Andy]
As a stakeholder in the game, you want to see the game improve. You want to, if you're, if you aspire to see it improve and you're solely focused on the top 1%. I think there's people that should be focused on that group of people because they need attention to.
But we need more, like the barriers to entry in hockey are beyond massive, like beyond massive. So, you know, soccer requires a player, a pair of cleats and a ball and our sport's beautiful and it's a lot of fun, but you got to get people to play it. So I think there has to be, and Mike does a wonderful job of articulating the bottom end of that and why if you broaden that, you're going to get more athletes.
The game's going to be better. It's going to be faster. It's going to be more fun.
I'm a big believer in all of which he preaches. And so for listeners of your show, there's no need for me to to regurgitate that. I do think that if you on the on the development side of the house.
I was laughing when you at the start of your question because you said, you know, this and that and then it's really, are you not describing a business model as opposed to a development model because. When you when you compartmentalize all of those segments, really what you're doing is you're creating little small businesses for each of those segments. We have, you know, as a youth person, a parent, a youth parent, we can invest in the shooting coach, we can invest in the strength and conditioning coach, we can invest in someone to watch video with our son or daughter and it's all it's all well intentioned.
However, I think the passion has to exist there and sometimes you can. You can suck a little of that passion out if you, you know, if you're if you're pushing too hard, one of the things. That's rooted in what Mike is saying is that the more people that are involved, the more fun it is, the better it is, which is going to naturally keep people more involved in it anyway.
You know, like by association, right? And so I think that's an interesting concept to pull on. And I just think I'll take it.
I'll go in a little different direction like. If you want to talk about club hockey and things like that and midget hockey and there's some really, really good programs out there that are doing great things. And I think there's, you know, in life, there's an opportunity cost for every decision you make.
And sometimes the opportunity costs, let alone the cost for these things can be high. I still remember at the early stages of my coaching career, I was an assistant coach in Sioux Falls in the USHL. And I was in charge of like grabbing and kind of organizing all of our players academics so that we could have like information prepared for the college scouts that were coming.
And I started to to assess some of the transcripts that were coming in and you know, a lot of them were really good and a trend that I really noticed was absences. I would see some of these players coming from midget programs. And I honestly, I saw things like 27 41 37 absences in a academic year and someone who grew up in a different model than that.
That was a little that was extremely foreign to me. But it was also an eye opening moment. And so when you're headed down a path like that.
You know, I think we always have also have to consider the opportunity cost.
[Jason]
Yeah, I've heard you talk on other shows about the fact that academics is important to you. And I'm not sure which year this was. So I don't know if it's still current, but I heard you say at one point that your team has the highest DPA of any team.
Men's or women's in in the whole school. And I, and I think you also said that it wasn't a mandate that it, you know, maybe it's, you know, kind of selection of the, you know, of the, you know, the types of players that you bring into the program. But, but where does that academic emphasis come from?
And when you optimize for it, are you optimizing for it because it's sure as the hockey better or, or, or the life better. And if it's the life better, is it, does it also reinforce the hockey or, or is it at the expense of the hockey because it's the right thing to do.
[Andy]
In terms of facts, you are correct. The first two years, our staff was here. We had the highest GPA of any men's or women's team on campus.
From a statistical standpoint, we're extremely proud of that. We also never discuss our team GPA with the guys. We only discuss our academic pursuits in terms of effort.
And curiosity, I think our leadership style here as a staff is rooted in those things were an effort based program. And we're also an effort based program with regards to academics. And it's our guys are the expectations of them are very, very clear in that regard.
We have individuals that come here at different levels of academic preparedness. Some are really smart and some of the things come easy to them. Some of them are more of grinders.
Some of them have been in junior hockey for the past two years and have been out of the classroom and they're, they're, they're adjusting. And so they all arrive at our doorstep with the different levels of academic preparedness, but our expectations are, are not on whether you get a 3.2 or 3.89. The expectations are, did you effort and are you curious, you know, like really when it comes to academics, are they not investing in themselves. I think we were at a business school here at Bentley and I think it resonates with our guys when, when we often use business analogies and the investment in yourself, I think is one that resonates with the guys.
It your future isn't going to change if you have a 3.75 or 3.72 your future is not going to be any different. Well, whether you gave everything you had and you were curious and you asked questions and you sat in the front row and you got to know your professors. I think, I think that type of pursuit is important to us.
I do not think your second part of your question. I do not think they're mutually exclusive. Sometimes I think some of your best performers on the ice are some of the guys that are just as competitive in the classroom.
And they want to do really well. You know, I don't think we have anyone here who's not interested in the academic side of their dual pursuit, right? So they're both important, but again, it's really not rooted in results for us.
It's rooted in effort and curiosity.
[Jason]
So now, but also when I've heard you talk before, I've heard you talk a lot about effort, curiosity, habits. And so I want to ask two questions on those topics. One is with your co chat on how much of that is finding versus instilling.
And then I want to, I know your dad. And so I want to ask you that same question as a parent in terms of if you want your kids to have it. Do you just hope that they inherit the genetics or or or other ways that you can actually teach it?
And if so, how? Because I mean, I'm, I value those things and I wrestle with that all the time in terms of, you know, how to instill things in my kids versus like letting them find their way themselves and hope that they end up in the right place.
[Andy]
I do think you have to lead, you know, if you're going to coach at a college institution, I think you have to be willing to walk the walk, right? So you can't speak about effort or curiosity unless you're exhibiting those traits. And I do think that our staff by and large exhibits those traits on a daily basis.
I think the expectations of those guys, they know what they know what the expectations are, but it's high effort. And I think they have to be willing to understand that the world doesn't resolve around them and that these are these are service positions positions. I think we're here to serve first and foremost.
And so from there. Sure, you're looking for traits, you're looking for you need guys with offensive IQ, you need guys with defensive awareness, you need a couple of goalies, you need all kinds of things and, and we're searching for those things. However, I do think if you pour some energy into your culture and your culture is exhibiting the things that matter to you effort, curiosity, desire to get better.
You can people can be affected by the environment that they're in. I'm a big believer in that. And so we're not discarding certain individuals just because we haven't seen those traits.
And so I think you always lean into at the college level your culture and and making sure that those habits and details are permeate from the staff down in through the leaders. I think that's extremely important. But yes, you're always searching for those things and the one thing that I think a lot of evaluators can do is they can they can search for effort based players and we do that as a staff to like I'm sure a lot of other people do as a parent.
Great question. I have an eight and five year old daughter at home. Have not figured that out.
And what I have figured out is if you want to instill a or attempt to instill a love of reading and then you should be they should be seeing you read on occasion. If you want to instill another habit or detail within them, I think they should probably view you in situations and we're in which you're exhibiting that habit and detail. So I do think about those things when it comes to parenting, but we're all failing more than we're excelling in that realm.
That's for sure. I know I am.
[Jason]
I want to bring that back around to a Bentley specific question. I've heard you say that you relish being the underdog and that one of the things that attracted you to Bentley is that it was a it was a smaller school and that. You know, there was upside there was work.
To be done. I've had some other coaches come on the show recently who've said that some of the recent changes in the landscape have made. The job both of the coach and the players just the relationship more transactional all around or it's more about recruiting than it is about development, because players are going to cycle in they're going to cycle out of the university they hit the portal.
You know, they might lead to go to the pros and not stick out their college career. Et cetera, et cetera. You've talked about one of your core differentiators being that players know that when you get them they're going to get better over their time at Bentley.
So I'm just curious, first how you react to that comment about it being more transactional around and then specifically what your approach is at Bentley and how you've been navigating this evolving landscape.
[Andy]
Sure, it's changing. It's a bit chaotic. I think our job and my job as the leader of the program is to.
It's to kind of find our space within the chaos. We don't. We don't control the rules.
We don't control a lot of things. We don't control most things. We just control what we do and how we do it.
You know, sometimes when you know you're referencing like some comments that are painting with broad brush strokes right like it's become more transactional and these are these are 10,000 foot views and. I'm not going to shoot them down. I think there's truth within.
You know, all of the statements that you've made so far and I think there's truth within that. I think if you're going to throw up your hands and say. That sucks.
Then you should probably look to do something else like I just don't think. We can stop all the waves, but. I do know that we can control the environment here and when the guys are here, which is a small fraction of their day and a small fraction of their life.
I know whether they're going through good times or bad that they feel as though our staff is invested in their development. And so one of the things that we're trying to do here. People are going to make their own decisions, but we stand for what we stand for.
Our guys play for the front of the jersey, not the back of the jersey. The guys understand that it's an effort based program and there's an opportunity cost to that too because it's hard. They also understand that.
If they walk up the hill from the rink from the arena. If they pour themselves into their pursuits up there, there's a lot of talented individuals. That can help improve their knowledge base, basically make them smarter, right?
And help assist in their pursuit of knowledge. That could result in a job. It could result not in a job, but like they're they're making themselves better and then down here at the arena were far from perfect, but I do think.
Because we view these things as service positions and not, you know, not necessarily being about us. I think our guys maybe feel that lack of ego and they feel that we're invested in their development and. Sometimes development goes through fits and starts and it's not always linear, but.
I think we're trying to hit their experience from all those, all the different sides there. And if you're in it, if you're an individual and you find yourself in that situation and you see that much help and around you, I think it's a pretty darn good environment. You can go searching for a better one, but that's your decision.
[Jason]
Some of that is how people carry themselves and how available they make themselves and what expertise they have and what trust they can build. But other than just getting the right people with the right skills around the table. Other other things that you found are effective in terms of fostering that.
Brand of the Jersey mindset.
[Andy]
Yeah, it's challenging. I think societal trends are making it more challenging. A lot of times, certain things are rewarded in the media that are, you know, back of the Jersey type.
Efforts or. Takes or whatever it is. So, but I think at least how I look at it.
I think that's kind of the mission. I think that's a little bit of the mission. I think young men out there need leadership.
I think they need people to lead them down a path of figuring out what's important. And whether they understand it or not, people have to understand. That when people are pulling in the same direction, the collective can accomplish more than the individual.
In a game of hockey, you need everybody. You need depth. You need all the players.
And within that, there's going to be individuals that shine and that's great and things are going to come to those individuals opportunities. Next level opportunities. Ice time is one of those things, but I just think it's cool to play for something.
And I think it's cool to represent something. And in a world that is so fractured and compartmentalized and individualized. I think having the guys in environment where their growth and development is important.
But it's secondary to the collective. I think that's a very, very important concept for young people to understand and to live within. And it's hard.
It's a hard balance to walk. We don't always walk it well or perfectly. But we're giving effort to walk it in a proper way because I think young people need it.
And I know from the outside that the expectations of a college coach and more and more so all the time are to win, to win, to produce. And when you become a Division I head coach, you fully accept those. Like you have to embrace those.
They're all important. The pursuit of winning is really important. But I think it's also an outcome.
And I think it's an outcome of a lot of the other stuff we've already discussed, right? And expecting the other things after that. I find it to be a little bit backwards.
[Jason]
When I hear about front of the jersey versus back of the jersey. Or when I'll even maybe make it more general when people hear about it. I think often the first thing that comes to mind systems.
I've heard you say before that you have an aversion to systems. And it's much more about habit than about systems. Can you talk about that a little bit?
I'd love to understand it better.
[Andy]
Yeah, I'm going to reference winning here briefly, but just to make a point. I think people, people win games, not systems. You know, I haven't had the fortune to coach basketball or football and those are different animals.
I think like those, those coaches are calling every play. They're just dictating. There's a play that happens for 10 seconds.
And then they look to the sideline and it's just a different, it's just a different job. I think our game is so read and react based and so instinctual. That really the, our roles are, there's plays out there.
There's, there's face off plays, there's concepts and things like that. But we're more steering a ship than anything else. At least that's how I look at it.
So I think you may have to make sure you're leading with like the steering wheel or the rudder first. I think that's really important. And we have systems here.
They're under emphasized. We overemphasize habits and details because. Kind of like what I, my, my, my view of winning as being a byproduct.
It really doesn't matter what your forecheck is unless you have good habits, unless you have good details and. As an educator, I think those things are going to translate more to the rest of their life than their ability to master a one to two forecheck. So I think there's a little bit of an educator in there, but I also think it's.
It's my preferred method of teaching because I think if you're only reliant on systems. Really, you're just coaching decisions and you're just saying, if this happens turn right, if this, if this guy falls down turns left. Well, a lot of weird stuff happens.
By the way, a lot of weird stuff happens in life and you have to, you have to have the ability to react and. I think that's why our teaching is often rooted in concepts. If we feel as though if the individual understands the concept of what we're doing in the neutral zone, the concept of what we're trying to accomplish defensively.
And then we work and drill the habits that are involved in that. I think whatever it is you call the system, black, white, red, yellow, I think it can actually look good, but it's just a byproduct. And so I don't, I don't love to say things like we had a good game plan tonight.
I think the systems took over. I think that steers a lot of the credit towards the coaches and the coaches never stepped foot on the ice, right? And so I think the credit usually has to lie with the players almost always has to lie and lie with the players and they're in lies part of my aversion to it.
[Jason]
And when you think about, I don't know what you call those if you call them soft skills or, you know, when it comes to like cognition, reaction time, thinking the game or whatever word you use. How much of that is finding players that have it and how much of that isn't still in it. And can it be taught can be improved.
[Andy]
Sometimes I wonder if it can be taken to the next level, like the like the IQ piece, you know, like not not the like the hockey IQ piece. But I think everything can be improved within a certain, you know, bandwidth of percentage. Right.
I do. And I just have to work at it. Let's take a step back here.
I think the one foundational piece that has to happen is the relationship piece. Right. So to give the work on a relationship with an individual, if you're going to make, you know, significant headway from an educational or teaching standpoint.
So that's the first thing you have to invest in. And with the way recruiting has changed. Sometimes you bring individuals into your program and that relationship building has been shorter.
Because of whether it's a portal player or. You know, like for a lot of different reasons, sometimes the relationship is a year, a year and a half, and you've had a chance to build a rapport and camaraderie learn about the family. It's not always the case now.
So I think you have to invest in that first and foremost. I think that's going to build some trust and then from there. I think it just comes down to maybe showing, you know, contrast examples, finding, figuring out what their learning style is, making sure that they understand the concept of the topic you're discussing first and foremost, and then staying with it.
Sometimes your your point that you're trying to be make that you're trying to make is going to be absorbed in your first attempt. Sometimes it's going to be absorbed in your fifth attempt. Right.
And I think some of the patience in teaching lies within that. I think you. If you if you if it doesn't work the first time, you can.
You can point a finger at the person at the recipient and say, well, they didn't learn it, or you can figure out a different way to deliver the message. Right. And I think that's, you know, one thing that I encourage our staff to do just because we said something doesn't mean it's been absorbed.
Right. So I think. I think those are some concepts that I would talk about there.
But in terms of like the, the hockey IQ thing, it's just a little bit of a challenge. So, but I think if you create situations in which decisions are required. And then you discuss them and you teach from a conceptual standpoint.
Sometimes the decisions are going to be good. But the higher percentage of them are going to be good. I think if you lead that way.
[Jason]
So I'm going to say something as a statement. But I it's really a question because I want you to agree to tell me what you think about the statement and that is that. That growing up, there was a lot more.
Unstructured play that unstructured play is the best way to. Learn how to think the game or IQ or whatever the vocabulary word is. That your point earlier about how the, you know, all these little businesses, the shooting business, the edge work business, the, you know, that that those are that is the economy of the sport, but that isn't necessarily a development path.
And that not only does that not instill IQ, but might even be detrimental to IQ because the void that's. That's caused by not nearly as much unstructured play isn't being addressed anywhere else. Did you, it was left to react to that.
[Andy]
I agree with your statement. I agree with your statement all heartedly. Yeah, the, the unstructured environment, be it in the classroom around the ice is that's really where the creativity grows.
Right. I think that's where some really unique learning grows. I think there's magic in that.
So if we're going to go down the path, which much of the youth sports world has of the skating coach, the shooting coach. And again, I'm not offering judgments on these things. I'm just, this is the way it is.
Then perhaps we should for parents in a white collar sport that have lots of money to spend on. Suppose that their, their, their young son or daughter's development. Maybe we should invest in the coach that just provides free time, because if you don't, then maybe your skating will get better.
And it can help for sure. It will help. But your decision making isn't going to be improved because you're just targeting all these little tiny little segments.
So maybe, maybe that's something we should be rewarding or creating a business model for to somebody that just opens up the ice for. 25 people every day to just mess around.
[Jason]
Yeah, I really struggle with it as a dad because. You know, ideally, it'd be just more on structure play keeps it fun, keeps it fresh creativity, like, you have to try stuff, no pressure, no parents with their faces pressed to the glass with their veins popping out of their forehead. You know, like, you can just like go out and be a kid, right.
But the genie's out of the bottle, like that you can't put it back in, like the, you know, like, it's like trying to kind of go against the current versus versus steering within the current right. And, and so it's like, well, where else does that come from? And it's like, well, can you teach it?
And it's like, well, you can't really be taught it. It's about creating environments where it can be learned. It's like, okay, well, how do you create those environments?
Because other than the two, you know, 50 minute sheets that you get per week with your team, right? Like, that's not enough. And your kid wants more, but what's left?
Like all those little businesses, right? And that's not fun. And it might actually be detrimental to helping them.
Fine within themselves skills that are more translated about the game environment. So it's like, I don't like, like, not only is this a grind, but is it even helping? Like, I don't know.
I don't know what, but what you're advocating for. You can't find that either, right? So I don't, I don't know what the answer is, but I'm certainly frustrated about it.
[Andy]
I certainly don't have an answer. I can tell you to move to an environment, right? Well, or, you know, Finland, sweet, like, I mean, there's, there's pockets out there where, you know, like, you don't have to pay for all those things.
But none of those, none of these places are perfect. And then there is no such thing as a perfect place. But, you know, perhaps, I think one thing we can do is parents and my girls are a little bit young for this, but like, maybe you could, like, within this environment, maybe you can search out people and leaders that create more of it.
Instead of searching for, I'm just going to name names here, Team Illinois, because it's produced 74 division one players, as opposed to victory Honda because it's produced 70 70. Well, maybe you should just seek out people that you trust and believe in that you would, you know, that also will not be perfect, but that will navigate this space better than others. And we'll create more of those environments, more unstructured time, more important skills.
Maybe that's a path that we should be, you know, that we should be thinking about as parents. I mean, teachers, teachers, like, at the end of the day, like, I coach at a college, right? So, like, up the hill, there's, like, there's English classes, there's statistics classes, there's.
World history classes and depending on your issues level, they're all really cool, but does it not just really, really come down to the professor. And like their ability to grab you and get you excited about learning. I think it does.
I think that's more important than the topic, to be honest with you. And sometimes in college, people find and go down major paths just because they've been drawn in by a professor or two. And they want to keep learning from that individual.
And so maybe, you know, when if we're going to talk about development and youth sports and those things, I do think people matter.
[Jason]
Do you notice any trends when it comes to the most promising players coming up that might play at, you know, for Bentley in terms of what environments they came up in the game?
[Andy]
Well, I mean, there's trends in terms of what guys talk about off the ice, you know, you can see, you can. There's different experiences. There's often shared experiences.
We have a bunch of Canadians on our team and they have some shared experiences, especially guys from Ontario or British Columbia. So I think those are things I have trends. I'm not going to go down the major junior path because it's just too new of a trend to really pick up on anything that would be a really, really small sample size.
But, you know, as someone who, you know, I really appreciates and what unstructured time did for me, what how valuable I think it is. We are finding more and more players that reach higher levels now that are craving. Like I'm talking even like more structure within a power play.
So they want to still be able to make their choice. But like their choices within the, you know, within the game, but like they like the place and they like this, like the structure because they have not experienced the world without it. And so that's a trend I would mention.
We see that all the time and I think I've listened to some coaches at the highest levels explain the exact same thing. I know I noticed it here. I noticed that my other stops and I think that's something that we see all over high levels of hockey now guys that they want to have a little freedom, but they also don't want.
They also don't want too much.
[Jason]
How do you balance giving them what they want and what they're used to with with the programming them to more fit a freer flowing less structured style situationally dependent and it's also individually dependent right now.
[Andy]
Like my comment there was speaking with broad brushstrokes and I think I guess what I'm trying to refer to there is like, I don't know the 2026 regardless of the way you look at education or looking at the world. You can bring your top five guys under your power plate the division one level and say, let's go, you know, see what like they're looking for more than that that's what I'm saying they're looking for. They don't want to be told when to pass or this or like they want like some structure they want some place so on and so forth so like failures to provide that or to provide like some concepts with which the power play runs around I think is.
It's not it's not a wise idea. So I don't know it's so much about giving them what they want but I think I think sometimes they need that to like really let their skills shine. And but I think if it's all about like if you if you just have one, two, three, four, five, six as your options.
I do think that breaks down a little bit of like the ability to react based on what the team's doing you know you have to make you have to abort and make some different choices at different times. But I think that that also can be part of like like learning and teaching the game to because I think whether it's via breakout or you're teaching your power play quarterback like what to read off like you can you can teach that way too like for your power play quarterback I think you can say okay you're this is you're looking for this but if they take this away this is probably going to be open and they'll recognize that.
And then you do so I'm saying so I think you can guide them down a path there too and they're still going to be the ones out there making the decision. And that's a good thing you know, but I think I think you just have to every level has different ways. But I think you know as long as you're not providing every single answer to the test.
I think that's kind of I think that's kind of an important concept.
[Jason]
So I haven't heard you say this explicitly but I'm envisioning that maybe when it comes to running your practices there's less drills and more. More battling in different game like scenarios.
[Andy]
We do compete a lot in practice and that's we do and today was an example of that was like I think we had. Four or five different concepts no no no like four or five different drills that were pretty fun. But they were also like targeting in different area but they were like super competitive and the guys really enjoy those and we also had like.
Our fundamental drills so like we did two different angling drills today. Those can be fun but they're also just like you're you're hammering. Angling which is a concept that.
Comes to light in your neutral zone which is a concept that's really important on the four checks so again like the some of the fundamentals are important to carry out anything in which you're trying to do. I think we're trying to also juggle some fun within practice and then and work on some foundational things I think if you're trying to get your guys to understand that. You know being in good sometimes like being in good defensive position can lead to more offense.
I do think you have to set up some examples throughout the course of a practice week that you can show where where that's the case. But we're not no we're not but I don't think I'm I don't think I'm alone in this I don't think there's a lot of coaches out there that are just going neutral zone defense for check. Face like it's just it'd be pretty boring to be honest with what about data and analytics as more.
[Jason]
Technology keeps into the sport as more videos accessible as more analytical capabilities are there as AI makes it more efficient to deliver etc etc. How are you leveraging that. You know what what and what role does the data play versus the eye test now and how do you anticipate that will evolve directionally.
[Andy]
It's changed significantly one thing you know that's changed a lot is what the players have access to which is actually a good thing. You know they know a lot they they see a lot of analytics that are just readily available to them. Whether it's course or a variety of different metrics that they can they can see themselves.
But really data and if you're going to reference AI it's all comes down to how you use it right I mean I think it's all becoming more and more prevalent. Artificial intelligence is doing wonderful is playing a wonderful role in a lot of things. But really like everybody has access to these things.
So it's how you use it that is the differentiating factor. I don't think we we tend to err on the side of not giving the guys too much data. You know a lot of our evaluations of players are based on like what's happening when they're on the ice scoring chance for or scoring chance against.
And those are subjective measures that we're tracking every game based on the game events that occur. I think that tells a pretty significant story I think a lot of coaches at this level would agree with you. But yeah we reference face off data we referenced.
Like you know some puck battle data we reference some of those things. But we also don't like post it all over the locker. We don't have rankings for all these things it's just it's kind of like metrics to get you to like focus on a certain thing that might be like leaking at that point.
But I think the big one for us in a game in a game environment is scoring chances for scoring chances against I think that I think that tells a real story.
[Jason]
And as these players have more handlers around them personally whether it's a player development consultant whether it's an agent or an advisor whether it's, you know, a mental performance coach whatever it is. I mean it seems like as a program you pride yourself on having a lot of those, you know, kind of whatever player will need you can get from us. How do you think about the role of the team resources versus the role of the individual player resources and and how much interaction is there between the two.
[Andy]
Sure, probably think about it a little bit more less than you than you than you would imagine. I know one thing you can't do is you can't reference all these sources and maybe and and like reference them in a negative way, because a lot of times players have built. Built up a lot of trust in these individuals in whatever it is they're providing guidance.
Technical knowledge will be it and so I think yeah we would definitely stay away from like speaking negatively. In that regard I think you have to be aware that those things exist and that people are hearing you know young people today one of the reasons why it's a more complicated existence for them is because. You just have more voices in their ear, not just hockey players just young people in general right hockey players do for sure.
So I think you have to lean in to select some foundational things and I think you have to lean into your relationship with individuals, because if you want, if you want them to listen to you. I think the days of them listening to you just because it says head coach by your name and probably waiting, you know I think if they're not already gone. But if they trust you and they believe in in the direction you're leading them.
I think they will listen I do I I I'll forever believe in that. But I think the one thing that I will also add is they have to believe that you can provide them with knowledge that will help them get better. Like I don't think at this level in 2026 you can just speak in generalities you have to be able to provide like technical like a like skill based.
Like guidance or instruction on the ice via video. Then there's like more like subjective feeling like leadership skills. I can't reference curious people unless you know if you it's fine to have curious people but if you don't have resources for them to to dive into.
It's a little bit of a moot point right. So I think you kind of have to set up that neighborhood. I think the neighborhoods are pretty good example in which they're walking down the street and they can they can find what they need.
You know you have the your performance coach in house and they might need to they might need something there. Do you have your athletic trainer in house they might need to stop in that store and grab something whether it's an ibuprofen whatever it is. And they have all these different resources in the neighborhood and that makes it a pretty cool neighborhood.
And it's fun to grow up in that neighborhood.
[Jason]
Speaking of growing up in that neighborhood. I mean as a kid. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt you had any of that stuff you were just out at.
Is it Spring Hill Park. Yeah. Yeah you're at Spring Hill Park all the time right.
And so. Just because the resources are available doesn't mean. It's necessarily useful for kids to have them.
So I guess my question is. How young is too young or how do you know. You know how much is the right amount as someone's going through the journey because of course there's an accessibility thing but like in a world of unlimited resources it still doesn't mean.
That that that it's in the best interest the kid to have them so I'd love to hear how you think about that.
[Andy]
The age questions a great one. I think probably would would answer that in. A little bit more vague terms like if you're if you're if you're a dad like.
This stuff would be available to your three year old but you probably have to get to a point where. They're in their teenage years I'm just making something up and you see like a real love. Like a real passion.
And then perhaps you can steer them towards maybe some higher level instruction I think. I think that the younger ages I think it can be extremely like a detrimental. But once that passion is ignited and you can see it and it's stabilized and it's been there for a long time.
I think that's a fine time to. To reach into additional resources or additional knowledge bases. But again if you seek out people and you seek out environments that are strong.
You probably don't have to look very far right. So but yeah when you're when you're growing up outside or in your community and you're just plain for the sake of plain. You just need to develop some skills and some and some love and some passion first before any of those things matter at all.
[Jason]
And then same question about specialization. How do you think about spring hockey summer hockey you know grinding in between the season in service of the season versus just going and doing something else.
[Andy]
And grinding in season in service of the season I cannot relate to you I think if you're going to commit yourself to a team in season I think you need to be committed to that team. Spring hockey has always been foreign to me. Our seasons long it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Maybe because I just view it as a time to play baseball. But it's just never made a lot of sense to me and I just think the off season is meant for developing skills. Developing your body.
Developing those things that can provide you with a better experience when the season rolls around. No I am not an advocate for not playing outside of the season. I think it's fine to be in a league I think it's fine to have a skating coach I think it's fine to do all these things I really do.
But unless you get some kind of diversion or distraction I think you can I think you can burn out pretty fast offer young athletes. I do I'm not a I'm not a development expert, but I have read some significant data that suggests that early specialization. There is data out there that suggests that it can lead to like that it points to like an increase in injuries.
For young athletes growing up that's not a good trend. I do think that like playing different sports and having different movements and being on different teams.
[Jason]
Maybe at the top of that list are all good experience all good experiences for people if you had a magic wand and you could change anything about the sport that would have the biggest impact and point in the game on a better path.
[Andy]
What would it be and why easy for me I think looking at it from someone who is invested in the game and loves the game I think it would make it be making the game more affordable. It is a it is a very slippery slope we're headed down. That we've gone down the barrier to entry as I referenced earlier is so high financially and unless we find a way to make it more affordable in different pockets the country in different in in in different parts of the world.
Fewer and fewer and fewer people are going to have access to the beautiful beautiful sport. And I think that's going to make the game worse. I think that's going to make make opportunities harder to come by.
I think that's going to increase travel and I think it's just going to have a trickle down effect. On the sport in general. And the experience of everybody involved and I'm talking even parents.
Because if you have to seek out every next step for your individual for your for your son or daughter. I think that can be exhausting too. And if every next step or every next thing costs a lot of money.
[Jason]
Any examples of areas or entities that are doing it right or any ideas for the type of. Program or entity that you'd like to see to to address this problem like I guess how I'll take a stab I do feel as though that you know.
[Andy]
In the last 10 15 20 years I haven't been overly invested or involved in the youth hockey world. So I've just kind of seen it from afar and running camps and clinics and things like that. But I do think there's some.
There's like some learn to play packages out there like that that that youth organizations are offering like whether it's. The program that Mike reference that is like really bank rolling or offering the first year as. A free opportunity or a significant even a significantly discounted opportunity because the dirty little secret about our sport is that it's so darn fun.
So I'm kind of getting some of those people in the door at at a reasonable price point. This can be really, really important for increasing the number of players within the game. That are experiencing the game and the joys of the game.
So I think those are important. I think like some some starter equipment packages whether it's like your son or daughter you think you see that they want to play. But like the gloves and the skate and the stick and the helmet all of it is just a lot for like what you think you see as a passion.
And now all of a sudden there's some. I know there's youth organizations in Minnesota and I'm sure throughout the country that are offering like. And maybe even small businesses that are offering equipment packages.
So you can get like into this equipment at a significantly reduced cost. I think those are important. I think the reuse of goalie gear in an organization can be really, really big deal.
Like if you're running a community organization and you have the ability to recycle goalie gear, especially at lower levels as they figure out whether or not you want to do that. I think that can be really important. Yeah, those are some examples that I've I've seen, but when when your listeners are.
Are listening to stories like Mike and and the and the things that he's talking about it. You know. Whether whether or not agree with everything or you think it's feasible in the in the pocket of the world you're in.
I think there's some threads on there that are really, really important. And then the cost one is one that I see as the as the primary one.
[Jason]
We've covered such a wide range of topics here. I really enjoyed it. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did or any parting words for listeners.
[Andy]
I don't think so. I mean, I know you kind of Jason kind of walked me through your, your path and what you're trying to. To learn and.
And kind of sift through like your purpose for the podcast and I just think I've enjoyed listening to the ones that that I've listened to so far because you're, you're bringing on guests from. All different walks of the hockey world right and I think learning from different people's experiences is a good way to figure out where you can where you can fit in and how you can affect things and affect positive change. But the development side of the house and the use force of the side of the house the.
The pursuit to make that better to make that more affordable to make that a more enriching experience like so really normal pursuit. Because I think for anybody that loves the game, they want to see a girl. And I think that's kind of at the root of everything.
[Jason]
What I wrestle with just with my builder hat on is. I mean, you can either. You know, as a family.
You just need to play the cards or delts. You might not like the system, but the system is the system. And unless you opt out completely, you need to navigate within the system in its current construct, right?
And so. So there's one side of me that wants to help players and families navigate that system better more effectively more affordably more excessively, etc. And there's another that's like, actually, I mean, is that just like, you know.
You know, like, like taking a spoon and trying to get the water out of a out of a boat with a big hole in it, right. And actually is all that kind of winter dressing versus just putting the system front and center and trying to change the system. And I don't know the answer, but if I had one piece of pause about doing something focused on the players and families, it would be the hat.
Right. Is that is, you know, is that just addressing a symptom versus versus really addressing the problem in a durable way.
[Andy]
Yeah, it's a great discussion. It's a great topic and there's different opinions and people. Within our sport that have different objectives and different goals and progress isn't always measured in a linear way either.
Right. So, sometimes things have to get worse before they get better and. But I think providing at the end of the day, providing good experiences for people in use sports is really important.
Because that's how they make their friends. That's how they grow a passion for the game and much more important than some of the other things we talked about.
[Jason]
Yeah. And I mean, if there's one thing that gives me great motivation, it's that it's that there's a duality with, I mean, all the hockey people I know kind of love the sport with the fire of a million flames and hate the system in its current form, right. And those two can coexist, right.
So I think it's a really motivated audience in terms of, you know, in terms of having a path that isn't as exhausting for everybody and expensive, right. But at any rate, I'm not going to solve that today. So I'll let you get back to coaching.
But Andy, thanks again for coming on. You know, if my kid could ever play for a coach like you, I think you're everything you're talking about just really resonates. So I'm wishing you every success and would love to keep the dialogue going as we both get further in our journey.
So thanks again.
[Andy]
Yeah. Appreciate the discussion, Jason. Take care.
[Jason]
Thanks for listening to Puck Academy. If you enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with someone serious about their game. See you next week.