In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs interviews Ben Guite, head coach for men's ice hockey at Bowdoin College. They discuss Ben's accomplished hockey career, including his college years at the University of Maine, his professional hockey journey, and transition into coaching. Ben shares insights about player development, his coaching philosophy, and the evolving game of hockey. Topics include the role of video and data in coaching, the impact of rule changes, and navigating the competitive landscape of modern hockey. Ben also touches on the balance between fun and hard work for young players and the increasing costs of the sport. The conversation emphasizes the importance of character, culture, and community in team sports.
In this episode of Puck Academy, host Jason Jacobs talks to Ben Guite, the head coach of men's ice hockey at Bowdoin College. They discuss Ben's journey from playing at the University of Maine to his professional career in the NHL, AHL, and ECHL, and his transition into coaching. They explore the impact of growing up in a hockey household and how the game and player development have evolved over the years. Key topics include Ben's coaching philosophy, the role of video and data, recent rule changes like NIL and the transfer portal, and the future of the game. Ben also shares insights on balancing fun and hard work in youth hockey, the importance of character and culture in building successful teams, and the influence of individual skills training on hockey IQ.
00:00 Introduction to Puck Academy
00:15 Meet Ben Guite: From Player to Coach
01:28 Ben's Early Life and Hockey Journey
01:57 The Evolution of Hockey and Player Development
03:19 Balancing Fun and Competitiveness in Youth Sports
15:25 Recruitment and Character in College Hockey
20:30 Challenges and Growth in College Hockey
27:01 The Importance of Mastering Junior Hockey
28:46 Personal Journey to the NHL
30:13 Balancing Academics and Hockey
33:02 Rise of Specialized Training and Academies
36:26 Evaluating and Teaching Hockey IQ
40:22 Coaching Tactics and Player Development
43:27 Impact of Analytics and Video in Coaching
46:33 Changes in Junior and College Hockey
49:54 The Growing Competitiveness of Youth Hockey
51:55 Building Team Cohesion and Culture
53:39 Final Thoughts and Advice for Hockey Dads
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Welcome to Puck Academy, a show about how hockey players grow on and off the ice. I'm Jason Jacobs, the host. And each week I talk with players, coaches, and experts shaping the future of player development.
(0:16 - 0:44)
Today's guest is Ben Guite, the Sydney Jay Watson Head Coach for Men's Ice Hockey at Bowdoin College. Ben played his college hockey at University of Maine where he helped lead the Black Bears to their second national championship in 1999 before being named an assisted captain and guiding them back to the Frozen Four in 2000. He totaled 47 goals, including nine game winners and added 49 assists for 96 points during his time at Maine.
(0:45 - 1:39)
He then spent 13 years in the pros with 175 games in the NHL, he then jumped into coaching where he spent several years at University of Maine, an assistant coach, an associate head coach, and then interim head coach before I've reached into the Maine Mariners in the ECHL as head coach and then he's been at Bowdoin since 2022. Now I was excited for this one because Ben played the game at a high level, coaches the game at a high level, his father played the game at a high level and now he's a hockey dad and coach as well for his kids. So there's a lot to talk about here and it's fascinating to hear about Ben's journey in sport, what it was like growing up in a household with a father who played the game at such a high level, how that influenced his decisions and development path along the way.
(1:39 - 2:08)
We talked about how the game has evolved, how player development has evolved. We talk about what Ben looks for in players, his coaching philosophy, how they do things at Bowdoin on the ice and off the ice, the role of video, the role of data. We talk about some of the rule changes, the portal and NIL and the Canadian major juniors and how that's impacting things at the division one level and how that's trickling down.
(2:08 - 2:23)
And we also talk about the future of the game, what Ben could change if he could wave a magic wand and his advice for players and families trying to navigate the path. I really enjoyed this one and I hope you do as well. Ben Gite, welcome to the show.
(2:23 - 2:35)
Thanks Jason, thanks for having me. I'm psyched to have you, man. We got a lot to talk about because your coaching in the NESCAC, I sort of played in the NESCAC, I quit a year and two games in which I'm 49 years old and still regret.
(2:37 - 3:03)
But yeah, we're a similar age and in addition to having played the game at a very high level and I'm coaching at a very high level, especially because D3 is the new D1. You're also a hockey dad like me and I know you coach, you know, from my prepped team, like you coach more than one team for your kids and maybe across more than one sport too. Yeah.
(3:03 - 3:11)
So yeah, I'm dying to dig in with you on a whole wide range of topics. Sure. No, I get involved in all different kind of level.
(3:11 - 3:19)
I guess it's my way of not paying for youth sport, which, you know, it could be a small mortgage sometimes. It's crazy. Yeah.
(3:20 - 3:43)
This is another thing we could talk about. But maybe for starters, your dad played the game at a high level and you also grew up in, you know, Canada, where the game's just, you know, all around you and you, you don't even think about it. It seems like for some kids whose parents were very accomplished in something, it can turn them away from that thing because it's too much pressure.
(3:43 - 4:00)
And then for other kids, it's like they, you know, they kind of are cut out of the same mold. But like, what was your introduction to the sport and what was it like growing up, you know, in a household where you did have, you know, a parent who played the game at a really high level. Yeah.
(4:00 - 4:10)
You know, I think it was to start. I don't think my dad wanted me to play hockey. You know, he was, you know, he played pro hockey in junior hockey.
(4:10 - 4:22)
You know, he was, there was a lot of fighting when he was one of the big guys. So he got the fight quite a bit himself. And, you know, he's told me stories about, you know, like, even when I was born, he was, he was attacked by a six.
(4:23 - 4:45)
There was a opponent in the park in London when he was trying to get home to my mom and I. So he was like, he was kind of done with hockey when he was when he was done playing, but growing up matriole and, you know, knowing that he played for the Nordics and the Oilers and, you know, getting a chance. I remember he brought, he brought my sister tonight to an Oilers practice when Gretzky was at his prime. You know, it was just kind of, they just fell in love with the game.
(4:46 - 4:53)
I love playing it. I still do. I clearly don't do it anymore because my body doesn't work, but I just grown up matriole.
(4:53 - 5:05)
My friends played, you know, this kind of thing to do. And I enjoy playing it. And where my dad was real instrumental, both my parents were having, you know, my mom's seen it on the, you know, on the family side of things.
(5:05 - 5:27)
It's just how to handle, you know, the ups and downs of the game and just, you know, making sure that I prioritize education through, you know, because, you know, it's easy to chase it. You know, their, their mindset was always use hockey. Don't let it use you because there's definitely some pitfalls there, but it was, go get an education and if you want to pursue it after you can do that.
(5:27 - 5:42)
One striking thing that I'm finding as I bring more very accomplished hockey people on the show is, it seems like a lot of them growing up didn't necessarily have goals. They just had love. And I'm curious for you.
(5:42 - 6:08)
I know you've had love because I've heard you say it on, I know you had love because I've heard you say it on, you know, other, other speaking that you've done. But where do goals fit into the picture, if at all? Like what was driving you in those early years? I think it's more or less when we grew up, you know, like when growing up, I was fortunate to have a dad that I'd played at a high level. But it's, you know, nowadays you go to any hockey rink and I heard that the other day and made a lot of sense.
(6:08 - 6:25)
Like, you know, you see Brian Gianta coaching in the Buffalo Junior Savers and you see, you know, you see these guys did. Thank you. But you see these guys are playing NHL that are in youth hockey rinks that are helping out.
(6:25 - 6:37)
So I think it makes the dream more accessible because you see these guys that have done it. We're growing up, you know, I was fortunate to have that in my house. But you didn't, you know, the NHL to me, it was like another world.
(6:37 - 6:51)
It didn't really, it wasn't something that I, you know, like I saw the Montreal Canadiens. I didn't think that, you know, you see them and you think they're gods that you don't really think themselves as regular people. So I never thought about playing NHL to have the truth.
(6:52 - 7:06)
I just, like you said, I just love the game. It got me to, you know, I was, you know, I had a good DNA with my dad passing down his jeans. And, you know, for me, first and foremost was if I wanted to keep playing, I had to go get an education.
(7:06 - 7:21)
That was the first thing my parents told me. So, you know, I convinced them to let me go to the University of Maine because, you know, when I got a chance to go there, they, you know, they were in a position maybe to win a national championship. That's what I wanted to do.
(7:21 - 7:25)
I watched out of the woods. I don't know if you have a chance to watch this. I'm like 10 minutes in.
(7:25 - 7:35)
And I only discovered it by having the Wall Brothers show. It's unbelievable. If anybody, if anybody, it's a hockey nut in your fan base, like you have to watch out of the woods.
(7:36 - 7:38)
It's, it's unreal. It's on YouTube. It's like 10.
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It's like an hour. But it's just all on YouTube on one day. I'm going to link to it on my newsletter.
(7:43 - 7:45)
Yeah. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable.
(7:46 - 7:51)
You know, it's 30 for 30 back in 1993. Actually, Gary Thorne does it. So it's, it's unreal.
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But so I was, I was introduced to that. So I said, well, okay. I'd love to play University of Maine and I got a chance to play there.
(7:57 - 8:05)
And I never really thought I'd got drafted there. But I never thought, you know, it was a seventh round pick. I remember the GM of the Canadians at the time.
(8:05 - 8:15)
I was a third pick in the seventh round. So they didn't put too much emphasis on me. And I remember that the GM called me and says, hey, if you're, if you're as tough as your dad was, you should be fine.
(8:16 - 8:21)
He said, I have no idea who I was. I felt. And so I just never thought it was, it was for me.
(8:21 - 8:34)
And then I just kept playing, you know, I think, and I got a chance to play, play eventually after six or seven years in the minor leagues. And just to me, I was kept, keep, keep playing, keep getting better. You know, as long as I love it, I'm not hurt.
(8:34 - 9:14)
I'm not in imposition to my family financially. It was, it was a way of me to keep them doing what I like. But you talked about DNA and the, the nature piece, where does, where does nurture fit in if at all in the sense that, I mean, if you look at the back of the jerseys in the ranks of the, you know, of the studs, right? A lot of times it's a recognizable, well, I say not all the time, right? But, but, you know, how much, how much of that is genetics you think and how much of that is, is access through, you know, the osmosis that comes from just, you know, being, being around that, that excellence and all the little nuggets that, that you get from that living and breathing it.
(9:14 - 9:18)
It's both. I wouldn't say it's one over the other. I think you need that you need the genes.
(9:19 - 9:41)
I mean, you look at the NHL players now, you know, if you're, if you're, if you want to be a goalie and that's six, five, it's probably not going to happen or close to right in the NHL. And if you're, if you're a player, I don't think, you know, the be hard pressed to find more than 10 demon under six feet in NHL. And if you don't, if you cannot absolutely fly, you're probably not going to play.
(9:43 - 10:09)
So it's just these things that, you know, like they're, they're just definitely on the pro side of things that they look for. Obviously, the college level and the amateur level is different. But at the same time, I just, you know, I mentioned already, like my parents, just, you know, the, the pro, the best gift they gave me is just how to deal with stuff, you know, like, how do you keep going? How do you keep getting up in the morning after taking it on the chin? I think that's probably, that's, that's, that's the nurture piece, right? It's just how to handle it.
(10:09 - 10:27)
And obviously, you know, with, with my dad and, you know, I think I might, might, might kids have the similar advantage is that, you know, I know, you know, you know, people, they're going to, you're going to be putting an opportunity to succeed. And it's going to be up to you to definitely get some feet through the door. And that's up to you to barge through it.
(10:27 - 10:52)
But there's definitely some, some genetics and some, some nurture and it's opportunities that, that I was fortunate enough to have. One thing I've been trying to sort through, because it's complicated and it doesn't seem like there's easy answers to it, is that a number of people that have come in the show talk about you, it shouldn't be your goals. You shouldn't be living vicariously.
(10:52 - 11:27)
You should be there to support. But at the same time, because of the professionalization of youth sports, what's happening earlier and earlier, these kids are being put on these tracks before they have the agency to make any choices because they're like barely out of diapers, right? And, and so, what do you think about that and how do you manage it? As a parent, I mean, obviously, you know, like, I've always been a big fan of letting my kids tell me what they want to pursue and then just supporting them in that and giving them the opportunities. We're not millionaires.
(11:28 - 12:02)
We can't, we can't be flying eight different, eight different times in eight different cities and major cities with their teams throughout the years. So like, we've made hockey local, but, you know, I, I have the ability to coach and, you know, that the great part about coaching at the NESCAC has got a little bit more free time than you do in pro hockey or division one, as far as when the year goes. So it's not like I'm sitting at home, I feed up, I'm just coaching youth hockey versus recruiting 12 months out of the year or coaching a season that goes from September to mid-June.
(12:02 - 12:29)
People say, keep it fun, it needs to be fun. It's all about the fun and at the same time, right? Especially as it gets more competitive and the road gets harder. It's like, if you don't grind, you get, you get left behind, like, as a parent, right? Grind's not fun, especially for a little guy or girl, right? And so is it hands off and just see if that, because who's going to seek out the grind? I mean, maybe there's a couple of googos, right? But like, most kids aren't going to seek out the grind.
(12:29 - 12:50)
And so what, you know, as a parent, what advice do you have for how to navigate that? Like you just let your kid fry because they don't love to, you know, shovel crap or do you try to instill habit? I don't know. My kids are 12, 15, so there's definitely not the finished products. I don't know, you know, maybe asking 20 years what I think of my approach.
(12:50 - 13:25)
But it was all to me, it was always like, get them to the rink with a smile on their face and make sure they leave the rink with a smile on their face. So I definitely had more of the fun approach, you know, teaching them the game and teaching the right way, but making sure that they had fun out there and there was a place that they associated would want, wanted to be there. I think the competitiveness of the game probably brings more of the grind out of them than I do, you know, if they want to win and if they want to be on teams, then, you know, like, I think they're less than there to be taught, taught as a parent says, hey, you know, well, you know, you didn't get what you wanted.
(13:25 - 13:38)
Well, this is what you could have done better. And it's definitely some teaching, more teaching moments when they don't get what they want than the, you know, when they do get what they want. I was fortunate enough, I think both my kids work hard.
(13:39 - 14:03)
But at the same time, the, you know, it's learning to work hard away from the game when they don't see the other kids working as hard. And you don't, it's like I was at a camp at Grand Townsend, and I've never heard the name, but he runs a great camp in the summer here, and he's got the Pete Boris D-shirt. And Boris is this fictional guy probably rushing some sort.
(14:04 - 14:24)
And this fictional guy out there that's that, you know, you try, you try to imagine working hard in you and you got to get into that mind and that mind, that mind space where or I'm getting somebody out there is trying to outwork me today. And what am I doing? But that's not to, I mean, that's sorry. Oh, you got these alarms set up.
(14:26 - 14:46)
But that's not something I approached my kids when they were eight or nine. You know, I just want to make sure because at the end of the day, if you keep showing up at the rink and you got the proper training and you got the right attitude at the rink, you're going to get better and you're going to keep going up. I think when you get to the age of 14, 15, 16, and this is all stuff USA hockey talks about.
(14:46 - 15:16)
I didn't, I sort of didn't bring it up. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't invent it. That's when, you know, okay, well, you're getting pinned against other players and how, you know, how do you respond there? How, because that's the real competitiveness too, right? Like it's not just that the game, it's okay, how do you measure yourself against other people? Are you willing to do a bit more than they can? But I don't think before, I don't know, like I think around 14, 15, 16, it's, I always felt there was my job as a hockey dad to get him within striking distance of the best ones at this age.
(15:17 - 16:38)
And then from there, they got to take over, you know, like that, that's, that's kind of how I saw it. And when you think about any, any themes as you're evaluating players and recruiting with your Bowdoin hat on, what are the, what are the areas that are uncompromisable for you that they need to have coming in? And, and which are the ones that, that, that you're willing to let slide because, you know, because either you can teach it if you need to, or you actually like to, so you can kind of put your stamp on it. I mean, we preach character quite a bit at Bowdoin, it's, you know, we're probably, you know, we're different if you look in it, you know, in most of the nest tech schools are the same, it's just we don't have the same luxury as Division 1 or other, other conferences, like it's really hard to get in our schools.
Most of the kids, once they get in our schools, they do it for, you know, they obviously, they love the game, you know, if they didn't love the game, they wouldn't get to be at this level. But most of the time they come in here because they know what these schools are going to do for them after their, their playing career. So, usually they stay.
So you got to make, you know, nobody's transferring out, nobody's leaving. So it's really important that you, you pick wisely, you do, you do diligence, making sure you bring the right people off. I mean, it's, for us, we throw, we, we, and every recruit we bring in, we make sure they spend time with our guys and our guys give up the stamp of approval on every recruit we bring.
(16:38 - 18:16)
And there's plenty of guys that we bring that they give a stamp of approval we don't get also. But it's so the character piece is important. There's a lot of times during the year where, you know, workouts are not mandatory.
So you got to turn your back on players and you got to make sure that they're doing the work and that they're bringing somebody along with them. So like, you know, recruiting leaders, bringing people a great character matters a great deal, especially in programs where we're not going to, I mean, I've been here for four years. We haven't had a transfer yet.
We get more moving out or coming in. So it's like you're, you're getting your four guys for four years, which is, you know, in a way it's the experience I had as a college player and I thought it was really unique. And I think, you know, for every advantage, it's brought to the individuals.
There's the portal and the NIL. I think that piece is being lost, you know, which is kind of, it's cool in a way. It's, I mean, I listen, I'm not, I'm not one to stand against progress.
I get it. But the fact that I think the NSCAC experience for hockey players is still very similar to what I went through because guys stay here for four years. They really get to build some meaningful relationships and they get to fight for, they really start, they really believe in what the program stands for as a culture and what we're trying to do.
As hockey players, I mean, obviously we will go hockey players. I think, you know, if you, if you get nowadays, if you get skill, speed, and you compete, we'll find a place for you in your lineup as long as you bring the character piece and your worker, I wouldn't say like we don't necessarily have a mold per se. We just, we like good hockey players, they're going to compete and they could think the game and that are, they're willing to fight for their spot in the lineup.
(18:17 - 21:37)
It seems like the, the college game is getting older. Is that your observation as well? And how do you feel about it? I'm, I'm fine with it. I think, you know, I probably, you know, like, I think that's one of the things that we, when we, we didn't took over it for four years ago about and we made a point of it.
I think historically, the NSCAC had a lot of guys come right from prep school to, to, to the, to the, to the next, the NSCAC schools. It's just now with division one, there's a lot of incredible students that understand like, that are chasing Ivy Leagues or chasing going to the schools like Boston College of Providence or, you know, good, good academic schools that are the D1 level and that they become, you know, they're 19, 20 years old and they get to the end of their eligibility in junior hockey and they're like, okay, what's next? And you're getting very talented players and, but you're also getting them with a little more, you know, a little more hair on their chin. They, they've fought a few more fights.
They're not, not physical, but like, you know, they play playoff. They've, they've grinded on the bus. They've, they've had to figure out life on their own because most of the time they've lived away from home for the first time.
So the first time they live away from home is not here at Bowdoin. So there's certain advantages that have come with that. I think the schools in the NASGAP have understood that that two years out, like I look at our guys like, takes two, three, two, three weeks to get used to school.
Again, being sitting on behind a desk, but I feel that the maturity they bring usually have a lot of success right away. It's not, you know, two years being out of school is not something that seems to hamper them to have success in the classroom. They're incredible students to start with.
Most of them are not, most of them are not geniuses. They're just really good people that work hard and they're disciplined with their work. So they come here, they do the same and they, they're very successful here.
I mean, I'm still a kid. Like I, I coach hockey for a living J. So I get sit here and be too serious about it. But we're, you know, they're going to work for a vast majority of their life after hockey is over.
I think, you know, waiting a little longer before that starts. I don't think that's ever hurt anyone, especially with how hard they have to work here to do well. And it's funny.
I think I heard you say in the past that when you were coming up in the game, it was important to you kind of sounded like an ego thing to, to be able to say that you went straight into college and, and we're a natural freshman, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was a big thing for me.
I don't know why I was 17. Didn't know anything from anything. And that was, I don't know, that was probably a feather in my cap.
But then I looked back, you know, I didn't play very well. My first two years of college, I spun my wheels, you know, like my freshman year, I think I was fortunate. Maine was suspended.
We were in love being in the NCAA. So I'm sure we lost a bunch of recruits. So by default, I played probably more than I should have my sophomore year when Sean Walsh came back from suspension.
Like, I, you know, I was in and out of the lineup. I remember my, my junior year, second game of the year, I had to watch the game from the stands and have one point, I just, you know, I'm going to buy into whatever this guy's saying because he's just as, you know, he's just as hard-headed as I am and he won't give in an inch. So I had to, I had to figure it out, but it really took me two years to figure out the college game and being able to be a key contributor.
(21:38 - 23:29)
So I had a good junior senior year, but really struggled my first few years, which I thought was, you know, the immaturity level and not not even been home away from home for very long. Going from, you know, playing in front of 100 people, which is mostly your parents and your friends to 5,000 crazy maniacs up in Orno. So I guess just, you know, I, you know, those two years were real difficult.
I definitely would have had a better college career, I think, overall, if I had taken the time to get there. Well, it worked out okay. It worked out okay.
So I can't say it wasn't good, but I do know those first two years were really hard and, you know, I see it a lot with our players. We've had some players that are, that are, came right from prep school to high school and sometimes those first couple of years are really difficult and, you know, it's not the experience you get while playing junior hockey does help mitigate that. I've also heard you talk about how, as a player, it's like, well, I am this or I am that and then coming in and sticking to your guns, it's like, well, that's fine if you want to be a martyr, but then you're not going to play and what you should be doing is finding a way to add value if, if the thing that you are, you know, has has three people ahead of you in the depth chart.
I guess my question there is, how do you balance being true yourself and finding the right fit and switching if it isn't the right fit with with finding a way to work with what you've got like, like when, you know, Wendy bend and, and when do you so select out as a player? Yeah. I mean, I just want to play. So, you know, I was, the only thing I guess I didn't do a whole lot was fighting, you know, it didn't happen, you know, organically, because I was, there was a bit of a pain in the butt to play against and sometimes they just had enough of me and somebody was just grabbing me, but I never went looking for it.
(23:29 - 27:10)
Aside from that, I think everything else was on the table, you know, if it was going to get me on the ice, I was, you know, whether it's killing penalties, blocking shots, taking face offs, you know, I remember sometimes I wouldn't, when I was playing Colorado, it would be months before, for me to, I wouldn't cross the top of the circle. I wasn't allowed to get over the red line, nope, it didn't stay high, make sure nothing bad happens. And then, you know, Peter Forsberg and Joe Sackett would get a rest and then, you know, by that time they go back out there and do something, you know, and I was like, that gets me there, that gets me to stay here.
I'll do that, you know. I think that's, and honestly, the more you do what's asked of you, the more ice you're going to get. And then at that point, if you do have those natural abilities that you're very confident that you have, they will shine.
You know, at some point, like I, this was, I was playing in Providence, my, I think my fifth year pro and Scott Gordon was our coach and he was our coach during the year, the lockout. And then I was my second year there and Scott went up coaching an HL and coached a longtime pro and I was coaching Waterloo in the USHL. And he goes, listen, we're really having a heart and I was, I was known to be a defensive guy, face-off guy.
So we're having a really hard time with our power play. We never have the puck, we lose all our face off. So this is what I'm going to do tonight.
You're going to take the face off. I don't want you to touch the puck, right? Take the face off, go straight to the net front, don't touch the puck, let the other guys do it. Thanks, let's go.
That's my first power play. So I win the face off, go to the net front and I think one goes off my butt, right? And it goes in the net and it's all right, we'll keep doing that. Just take the face off, go to the net front and I don't know, I wound up back door and somebody gave me a one, then I put it in.
Okay, well, you could do that. You could just go back door, go to the net front, still don't touch the puck. And it was like one thing after the next and I wound him in the power play the whole year just because I could win face off, you know.
So the more you do the things that are asked that are required to win, the more coaches will give you confidence in more ice time. And at that point, I could always shoot a puck. It's not like I was able to start the one time the puck when I got the providence.
I just never had the opportunity to do it. But if you're sitting in the stands around the bench, you really don't get the opportunity to show what you got. So I think that's sometimes guys, like you said, they want to stick to what they're really good at or what they're you can stick to it while you're in the stands, but that doesn't help you.
So what helps you being on the ice, and then that's when you can show your stuff. And there's a bunch of different contradictory opinions flying around on the show about, you know, steel strapping steel or, you know, stay where you are until the fruit is ripe, like, you know, better to, you know, until you're dominating, like, you're, you're not ready to, to move up. What do you think about that tension in that topic? I mean, it's just not a science, you know, it's a bit of an art form.
I will say, like, if you're, if you're not, I mean, there's truth to if you're not dominating, and you don't, I'm not saying, like, if you're not the best top scorer, but if you're not the best at what you do with that level, like, to move to move on before your time, you know, right, like, if you're, you're a 16 player, and you're six, you're 17, you have to move on, but to say, you know, skip you 16, you 18 to go play in the USA, because you're decent, you 16 player, like, everybody's was good. That's in that league. So I think it's important to really dominate or be the best of what you do before moving on early.
(27:10 - 27:49)
That's, that's for sure. There's such a thing as really learn, like, just, you know, as far as junior hockey goes, you know, you got to be ready. There's no question about it.
But at the same time, spending a few years in that level is going to help you. Like, we often, we talk about recruiting all the time, like, we get somebody to degrade and prep that we like, and they go off to these, these junior leagues and really, really struggled their first year. And it's like, okay, well, they're learning a new level.
Let's, you know, let's see how they do their second year, because a little bit more of a telltale of what they really are capable of doing at that level. So I think there's, there's a lot of truth. The fact that you have to be ready before you move on.
(27:49 - 28:36)
There's, there's, there's, you know, coach Red Genren, who's passed, who's a great mentor, mine at Nain, would say it's like, there's, there's plenty of stories of kids trying to go too fast and never make it. But there aren't, there aren't any stories about kids saying, I went too slow. Nobody ever said, man, I wish I would have gone faster.
And you could say that about, you know, it just doesn't, there are no, I guess that's why it doesn't work. That's, that's the way it is. And, you know, like, even the guys that, that leave college early, even if you have a good year, and you're going to play the minors, you know, the very few that they could just jump right into the NHL.
And then, you know, you talk to them through their journey in the American makes a man, like these guys, these guys are good. They're coming from all over the world. And they were all the best wherever they came from.
(28:37 - 29:34)
So it's really important to be ready. It is very important to think to dominate where you are before you move on, especially if you're thinking about leaving early. Well, you're like the poster child of quote, unquote, moving too slow.
I mean, isn't it, isn't it true that, that in your rookie year, you had a doubt of winning rookie of the year, even if you were, were eligible from an ability standpoint. But yet, you know, you made it, you went on to play hundreds of games in the NHL. Like, how cool is that? It was awesome.
And I remember my first NHL game, I was in Ottawa. And it was, it works out one of those things where your first game's Ottawa was two hours away from my hometown. So my parents were in attendance and it's not like, I think back then it wasn't an automatic that the team's going to fly your parents in or whatever.
And so I worked out and I just remember being on the bench. I'm like, an Ottawa was really good back then. They were the top of the league.
I think they lost in the finals down in that year. And Boston, we was a bit of a rebuild. We weren't very good.
(29:34 - 31:59)
Like Bergeron was his first second year in Boston. Timmy Thomas had just gone to the NHL. So it was kind of the best versus not the best, I guess.
That's the best way to put it. And I didn't know, you know, and it was my first game. I was 26 or 27 at the time.
And I just on the bench, I was like, I was able to absorb it and just enjoy it versus if it had happened to me at an earlier age, I would have put a lot of pressure on me on playing well, you know. And so I think because I had a little bit more of that perspective, I was able to play well. And I fell in a time where they were trying to figure out what a fourth liner in the NHL was.
So I got my time in the sun because of it. I want to go back to what you were talking about before about the kid from prep who goes to juniors and dominate and prep. And then and then struggles in juniors, you know, I heard you mentioned that you grew up in a in a very academic house.
And and prep is a very academic place. It seems like there's more pressure on top prep kids to not even finish prep, right? And to go, you know, to go into juniors earlier and do zoom school. And I heard you say that until a prep player goes to juniors, you don't really know what you've got at the college level.
So like, that's that's a lot to manage as a player and family trying to figure out who is academically minded. Like, how do you, especially if they want to end up in a place like a Bowdoin, right? Like, how do you navigate the best hockey path versus the best academic path? And and and when they diverge, you know, how do you how do you how do you tap dance through that minefield? It's hard. I won't lie to you.
It's like I said, it's definitely not a science. I would recommend prep school players that have, especially now with what's going on with division one, if you have aspiration of of playing the NESCAG, even if you know you're going to play junior hockey, finish, you know, graduate from that prep school. Those high-end academic school, they love seeing, you know, full completion and rigor and being able to be in one spot and, you know, especially the brick and mortar experience.
That'd be my first recommendation for anybody that's academically inclined that has that would like to go to the NESCAG. And then from there, I mean, yeah, and it's, you know, we have we have players reach out to us as far as, you know, who they are and performing well. And it is a bit of a leap of faith.
(32:00 - 34:45)
When you go play junior hockey, nobody's going to guarantee you anything. There are plenty of trades and they're like in like any prep school, any other teams, like there's some teams that do a great job developing players and take really good care of their kids. And some that don't do as good of a job.
It's for them, it's for families to do their their homework. If they're in conversations with different NESCAG schools or different colleges, you know, like ask the coaches what they think about different programs, kind of look at the experience, like how long's a coach been there and how many kids they move on. It's important to do your own research that way.
And, you know, for us, yeah, you're right. Like we don't quite know what we get. We get a closer look at the finished product once they played junior hockey for a couple of years.
But at the same time, if, you know, if you're a good quality prep player and you come with some high, you know, some high marks as far as your character, your work ethic and your ability to stick to things that are not always pleasant, you'll figure out your way. And, you know, I think that most coaches in NESCAG grow a lot of stock into that. The next topic, this is kind of a dual pronged one.
Yeah, it's so complicated for my little brand that I had to kind of dot down some notes so I get it right. But, you know, there's been a riser as the game gets gotten more competitive, there's a rise in grind and almost like sub grind, right? Like everything's getting kind of compartmentalized in silo. There's a shooting coach, there's power skating, there's the gym, there, let me use to be just like the team and then dry land, right? And now it's like there's all this stuff.
And there's a couple implications of that. One is that, you know, from a cost and just like a grind standpoint, as a family and as a driver, right? And as a kid, you know, sitting in the car, not doing other things, right? Like, that's a big toll, right? And so now these academies pop up to try to consolidate, right? So I have two separate ways I want to hit that, right? One is the rise of the individual skills and the implicate like is it good for the game? And what are the implications when it comes to things like IQ? That's one topic. And then a separate topic is as these academies consolidate, right? A lot of it is zoom school.
And so like, you know, is that a good thing or a bad thing for a player or a family? And how do you know? The skill is actually really cool because you see where the NHL is. And I mean, it's hard to argue the NHL has never done better than it has now. Part of it is the incredible marketing machine.
It's become, but it's also the product that they put on the ice. You know, I think I look back even the days that I've played with, you know, like I hung, I hung it up less than 15 years ago. And the game was deaf.
It was starting to get more skill. How's that possible Ben? Because we're around the same age. I'm almost 50.
(34:47 - 38:17)
I was unoriginal. They didn't want to do anything else. The game has gone so fast and so skilled and part of it's the equipment, part of it's like the type of player that that are now put emphasis on.
And part of it now is like kids, you know, you make so much money, even if you're like a fourth, you know, there's a there came a time where there's a fourth line in the NHL wasn't making a whole lot more than just the regular person. Now it's like your fourth line money, like you're you're setting yourself up for the rest of your life. So I think there's better athletes that see that as an avenue to make money early.
So like there's just better athletes that are willing to stick it out longer. Definitely the skilled component, you know, kids are taught at a younger age how to how to skate the certain way, how to handle the puck a certain way, how to shoot in a certain way. So that makes it.
I definitely think, you know, now it's like, if well, if you don't have the size, you can't skip, you don't have space over you. So along with that, you're grabbing some guys that might not have the IQ to play the game or the internal fortitude to play the game and have success at it. But those guys are given a try.
And then if it doesn't work, just move on to the next one. And you know, I think the guys that still make it to the NHL, they make it a lot, you know, for a long time are still wired the exact same way as they were in my times. There's still the athlete that wanted more than everybody else.
They're willing to do everything else than more than anybody else would is. And they're tough people, you know, they're willing to take it on the chin to get back up and they keep going at it and they keep out working people. I think that has not changed.
And it will never be because the permits, you know, that they're the top of the pyramid for a reason. Has the IQ suffered as the individual skill focus has increased? I don't know. I mean, I didn't look at the game from a coach's perspective when I played.
I think the game was slower. So it's probably a little easier to think it. I still think the guys at the top think it pretty well.
And there's still a lot of value to it. Like the thing that the hard part is recruiting wise, you don't put as much stock into it because you're not there every day. But when you're coaching, you put a ton of stock into it.
You know, when I have our players in our locker room, and I see them competing every day, and I'm trying to make up a lineup for the week, you know, I put a lot of stock into that. So, you know, if you know that's the type of coach that you are, you're going to recruit guys that can think that are hockey players, not just guys that looked apart. So I think it goes hand in hand with, you know, what you're trying to build as far as getting, you know, getting recruited by the higher level.
I think there's still some, there's still some coaches that put a lot of stock into it. There's some coach that don't like read the speed and skill and kind of figure out who can who can hang from there. But it's definitely changed just because the game's more skilled, more fast or unique guys that can do it also.
Well, I know we have a second half, but this is too juicy to leave quite yet. How do you, you know, how do you assess it and can it be hard? If I see a kid five or six times before he comes to Bowdoin, that's a lot, right? So like my, my, my window of evaluation is fairly small. So it's to trust the people that have, they have had him on an under team before.
So that's one way to assess it. I mean, I, you know, like to me, I see a guy out there and he's making plays, not just skill plays, but he's making plays using his teammates and moving the puck and making the right, the right reads. So okay, this guy's pretty, it's pretty smart.
(38:17 - 39:32)
So I'll go see his coaches, but this is what I see is that what it is all the time. And, you know, I think you become a bit of a lie detector, you know, when, when you talk to enough coaches, like if this guy's super enthusiastic and there's no hesitation in his voice, then I know chances are what he's telling me is the truth. If there's a tiny bit of hesitation, I'm like, maybe he's not like that all the time, you know? So I think, you know, it's, it's evaluating and then making sure you, then you dig, you know, you dig a bit more in past coaches, people that have met him, you know, I'm fortunate enough that they've been in the world of Henky for a long time.
So I typically know someone that's coached him and know somebody that's coached him. So that's, that's kind of how I evaluate IQs or just being an IQ player is this first and foremost, what do I see? But what, what does he leave in his wake? You know, what else can I pick up there? And can you teach it? I could teach him being better into systems and that what we're trying to do here because I see it every day and guys will get better. So I guess you can teach it, but much like somebody has have great hands or great feet, like there's a glass ceiling, right? Like, so I think you can definitely get him better, but I can't say he's gonna be my smartest player by the time he's done a boat and he's probably still gonna, you know, there's a limitation to what he could do.
(39:32 - 45:47)
Is it innate or can it be learned balls? You know, like there's some players that just see it, you know, I just, I look at both of my sons and I've seen them from, from the time they were born, like they, no matter what sport you put them in, they seem to pick it up, you know, and, and then there's other kids, I'm like, okay, well, but then there's other kids that are bigger, faster, and more skilled. So you're like, okay, so, and they don't see it. So I don't know, you know, I just, I think part of it is innate.
And then the other part is how often you expose to sport in those types of competitive environment, you probably develop over time. Just like any other skill, I think, I think your hockey IQ is a skill like anything else could be developed. And it's whatever to quote, good red gender.
And again, it's like whatever you pay attention, attention to show prosper. So you're gonna get better. That's what you want to get better at, and you work out of it.
So I want to, I want to jump into tactics. So when it comes to coaching, how do you think about systems versus habits? And how do you think about drills versus competing? I think they're all important. You know, I would say all the practices that I run, whether it's the mites or maybe not mites, but whether it's at the U14, U16 or pro level or college level, there's always skill aspect, there's always some form of system aspect, and there's always a competitive aspect to that practice.
Obviously probably a little bit more detailed in system as far when we talk about pro in college, because I have the guys on the ice a lot more, it's more very, very, very broad strokes at the youth hockey level. But just to make sure everybody's on the same page. And then, you know, it's tons of touches or whether it's passing, shooting, stick handling, skating, and then tons of compete.
Kids typically always fighting, more not fighting, but battling another player in order to get the puck, in order to make a skilled player, in order to accomplish any type of whatever the objective is in each drill. But I think, yeah, I would say those three things, every, every, any time I'm not quite sure what to do at practice, I go back to the drawing board with those three things in my skill system and compete, and then based on what our team needs and what our opponent is. When it comes to stuff that players should be working on in between the formal team stuff, how much of that is consistent from player to player, or position to position, and how much of that really is unique to a specific player in their game.
I mean, it's definitely a player player. I mean, general skills will make you a better hockey player. So everybody, everybody could probably learn how to shoot quick off the pass and have great edge work, and you know, being able to handle the puck at full speed.
Like, you could all every single one of them needs to be able to do that to play at a high level. Then from there, you know, if you're a defenseman, you probably want to work on a lot of touches at the blue line or retrieving pucks for breakouts. And if you're forward, you probably want to, you know, being able to work in tight spaces and be able to explode out of turns and being able to catch and release real quick down low or tip puck.
So I think there's definitely an element of general skills, the skill development that every single hockey player should have. And then there's, you know, as you build teams or, you know, you're trying to build tactics, like, there's definitely positional skills that we do here that, you know, that especially one-on-one, we'll have like hours in the morning where it'll be one-on-one for 30 minutes where that's what we'll do. Or like maybe in small groups, maybe not one-on-one.
But that's definitely important. I think there's a skill aspect, the general skills that make you a better hockey player that just gets you through the door. And then with the system, the structure of your team, there's some stuff that we like to work on.
So we're really good at tipping pucks if you want to be like a, you know, a shot volume team with net front and, you know, well, you better have people that are there and then know what to do when they are there. What about analytics and video? How much are you using it as a team? And then how much of that is behind the scenes with the coaches and the staff, but invisible to the players versus the players getting involved in that stuff themselves? Yeah, I try not to give too much to think about to our players. You know, it's still a fast game and they got to be instinctive.
So I try to give them broad strokes as to what they should be doing system-wise. We do a lot of video, but like really in really short bursts, you know, typically it's, you know, where we'll be, we're on a 645 at night. We'll probably have a meeting at 630 and I'll be about a minute of video and just kind of with the mindset of practice.
And this we're going to practice that because of this, because we're playing, we're playing Hamilton this weekend. This is what they do here. This is what we're going to do it for that.
And then we go out there and practice it. So it's really short burst, but it's pretty frequent. I'd say as far as video goes, analytics, there's definitely values to it.
There's going to pick and choose what you feel is important to you and then what resonates with your players as far as what you want to accomplish. You know, like if you want to hit teams every game, well, probably you should keep trying not to take a simple analytics number like hits while you probably should be sure that you all hit the other team every game, you know, like that you should probably keep track for that number. If you know, if you if you feel like breaking out clean is the key to your success, well, you should keep track of that and make sure that you share it with your players and tell them when they've done well and not well and show them that the numbers that you're looking for, that feel are important to your success.
So I think analytics, there's a lot of it out there. There's definitely, you know, now with the the AI and that that can break. I mean, we were, you know, we're using software right now that's breaking down games as they go and we go into between periods and it's spitting out certain things that we want to see.
And I'm like, okay, it's pretty cool. We still don't know exactly what we want to see. But it's just like it's getting more and more advanced.
I don't think it AI like analytics gets the whole story yet, but there's definitely some points where they can be helpful. So I don't think we're at a point where you could let them coach the game, you need to coach the game and kind of use it for support and illumination. I guess that's the best way to put it.
(45:47 - 46:24)
And for the things that you do track, how much of that is consistent that you will track throughout a season or throughout multiple seasons. And then how much of that is switching out and with what frequency? Like, are you are you switching every game? Are you are you switching on a per player basis? Like, how do you how do you think about like the moving pieces there in terms of the data that you're hungry for? I mean, we try to be as consistent as possible. Like, if we're going to, you know, hold guys accountable to them and we make sure it's always measuring the same way, especially throughout the season.
(46:24 - 48:05)
From season to season, you could set different parameters, but within a season stick with what you do and make sure it's communicated clearly what you're looking for. So the guys can go out there and do it. We talked a little bit about this, but when it comes to some of the changes that are happening around the the rule changes with the Canadian major juniors and the NIAO and the portal, how much of that is making its way into Division 3 and into your world? Yeah.
And I think there'll probably be some guys in NSGAC that have played some games major junior last year. It's still a little gray for some reason as far as it's a bit of a gray area of something, whether they're allowed to play it or not. But I think eventually they will be just because that's what the wrestling assembly is doing.
I don't know if there'll be a thorough ground for us to go up there all the time, because at the end of the day, you know, it is tier one level that are looking for tier one opportunities with a lot of money in their pockets, which we can't offer. So, but at the same time, I would say that the trickle-down effect is being massive. You know, we're looking, you know, we can't talk about particular individuals yet, probably because they haven't signed their financial aid or their acceptance papers yet.
But we're having guys that, you know, that are playing the North American League right now that are refreshment for us, that have produced at a level that nobody's ever produced in the history of bone hockey are close to. And that's for every program. That's not just us.
You know, there are some guys that are that were slam-dunk Division I athletes before that are now like calling us in January. And they're like, yeah, and I really think I'm really looking towards the NSCAC. I'm a great student.
(48:06 - 50:07)
It doesn't look like Division I or the Ivy League is going to be something that's going to happen. And so there's definitely been a shift. I think the dust is going to settle.
I think there's going to be a lot of mistakes made in the CHL because of the letters of the League. And I think the dust going to settle, people are going to find out that the USHL is still a great avenue in order to develop players and players are going to go there because of what their development model is. But I also think there's going to be a time where there's some American League teams that are going to sign guys out of the NSCAC.
I don't know if it's going to be a lot of them, but I do think at some point because you're going to get somebody with a frame, we talk about DNA or somebody with a great frame or pro-frame that could skate and that might have little things to touch up on. He's going to come here and be dominant, depending on what he does with this summer. And there's going to be guys coming out of Division III, they're going to play the American League.
And it's somewhat not too distant future because what we've essentially done with allowing the CHL players to be in the NCAA. So we eliminated development spots. Well, there's still as many pro-spots as before.
So these guys are going to have to come from somewhere. And you see programs like Oklahoma State right now, they're doing a lot of publicity about there might be starting a D1 program. So I think that's going to grow.
But until there are more Division I programs, these players still have to come out of somewhere. And you still have to fill your roster in the CHL. You still have to refill your roster in the American League and the SHL and all the leagues around the world.
So I think it's still Division III is a much more viable option if you want to play pro than it has ever been before. And that's kind of like the moving landscape that I've noticed or at least I expect to happen in the next few years. I mean, it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that the youth game has grown at an outpace grade to the number of spots available at the college level and beyond.
(50:08 - 50:22)
And that's made the road much harder for the youth players coming up in the game. I mean, as a coach, you probably like that because it means you get access to better talent than you've ever had before. But stepping outside of your coach has you just look at the overall health of the game.
(50:24 - 51:07)
What's your take? Where are we today? What do you feel good about and what do you wish was different? I'm just definitely getting more competitive. The players are really getting much better. I think that the game is growing.
Well, I mean, you look how many junior leagues there are. Some people say it's watered down. I think just kids like to keep playing and there's opportunities for them and they're willing to go for it.
I think you see Division 3 is going to get a lot better. You look at the ACHA level and I was going to get a lot better. I mean, there's some places that are incredible program that draw big time crowds that are at the club level.
So I think that's going to keep growing. It's a free mark. It's going to figure itself out.
(51:07 - 52:43)
And kids don't want to keep going and they'll find a place to play and they'll be able to keep going. And if they're good enough, they'll keep finding ways to the next level side. I can't really sit there and tell you.
I think that the game is probably the best it's ever been. I'd like to to me that the one thing I would like to see adjust is it's afforded bitterly. I think we were reprising ourselves out of really good athletes and really good people just because it's too expensive to play.
The gears too expensive, the quality teams, unless you live in Minnesota, you know, unless you're rich, you can't play the game, which is very unfortunate. And the last piece is, I mean, you talked a lot about talent and what you look forward to get the right pieces to work with. But as a team, you guys have been really successful and I would imagine that there's a team element too in terms of driving cohesion with whatever pieces you've got.
So talent aside, what's your philosophy? Just in terms of how to get everybody growing in the same direction and operate as a, you know, as one team and one unit and one Bowdoin. Yeah. Well, I touched up a little bit on the recruiting parts, the type of people we bring and we seek out.
So, you know, like we make it, we do a lot of work making sure we bring in the right people on board. I think part of it too, like the school does a tremendous job just recruiting good people that work hard. I don't know what they're, how they measured that part and measured process, but it seems they, they seem to strike that balance really well.
(52:44 - 53:30)
And then from that, like we just focus really hard on culture and making sure, you know, how we treat each other, how we treat people on campus and, you know, making sure that those standards are upheld every day. So of course, the quality of play is something we talk about. But I know like if we bring the right people on board and we hold them to really high standards and how to treat people, you know, typically they'll, they'll fight really hard for each other because they tend to love each other more than, you know, at the end of the day, like most of the, I haven't seen a team at this level that's just so much more skilled than everybody else.
It really comes down to who could fight longer than the other team, you know, and who can fight for each other a little longer than everybody else. And typically at all level, that's how it works. So to us, like the quality of individuals and the culture in which we operate every day is the most important.
(53:31 - 54:30)
I think that's a great point to end on, is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did or any parting words for listeners? I mean, I would, I would recommend any dad that's had a history of playing hockey to get involved with youth hockey as much as you can while your kids are in it. We need to keep getting good people involved that, that are doing for the right reasons and that have gone through it and, you know, and they could definitely, sometimes it's, it's easier to just sit back and just want to trust me. I've had that in.
I had that feeling before that just being exhausted, getting to the rink and so I'm just going to watch practice. I don't want to deal with it. But most of the time you get out of that practice and get a big smile on your face because you have to force yourself to be positive.
So, but as they get involved, make sure, you know, like you keep sharing. There are some issues with the game, but the more good people we have that are working at it, the best, the best it's going to be. All right.
Well, Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was great getting to know you a bit. And that's the luck and the remainder of the season and beyond.
(54:31 - 54:33)
Thanks, Jason. It was, it was awesome to be on. Thank you.
(54:34 - 54:44)
Thanks for listening to Puck Academy. If you enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share it with someone serious about their game. See you next week.