In this episode of 'The Next Next,' guests Matt Kingsley, associate head coach for Yale men's basketball, and Tobin Anderson, special assistant to the head coach at University of South Florida, discuss their extensive coaching careers and the evolving landscape of youth sports. Covering over a decade of successful coaching, they delve into changes in player development, the impact of sport specialization, and the role of parental involvement. They highlight the benefits and drawbacks of modern training regimes, explore societal shifts towards over-scheduling, and share personal anecdotes about coaching their own children. The conversation also touches on accessibility issues in sports and how technology could potentially offer solutions. The episode wraps up with advice for sports parents on balancing support and pressure to keep their kids motivated and engaged.
Navigating the Evolution of Youth Sports with Coaches Matt Kingsley and Tobin Anderson
In this episode of The Next Next, host Jason catches up with Matt Kingsley, associate head coach for Yale's men's basketball team, and Tobin Anderson, special assistant to the head coach at University of South Florida's men’s basketball team. They discuss their wealth of coaching experience across different levels of college basketball, sharing insights into the changing landscape of youth sports, athlete development, and the increasing role of specialization and privatization. The conversation covers the impact of modern sports structures on young athletes, challenges with accessibility, the balance between fun and competition, and the evolving responsibilities of parents and coaches. The episode closes with personalized advice for sports parents and reflections on their own journeys and the joy of seeing their kids thrive in sports.
00:00 Introduction to Guests: Matt Kingsley and Tobin Anderson
00:04 Matt Kingsley's Coaching Journey at Yale
00:27 Tobin Anderson's Diverse Coaching Experience
01:52 Personal Reflections and Catching Up
02:09 Discussion on Athlete Development Across Sports
02:42 Current Roles and Coaching Backgrounds
05:57 Changes in Youth Sports Development
06:49 Impact of Specialization in Sports
10:33 Parental Involvement and Organized Sports
14:54 The Business of Youth Sports
15:26 Positives and Negatives of Modern Youth Sports
19:12 Recruitment and Specialization Debate
26:29 Parental Roles in Athletic Development
31:46 Coaching Challenges and Personal Growth
32:53 Parenting and Coaching Dynamics
34:57 Youth Coaches' Impact
36:38 Balancing Involvement and Independence
41:02 Accessibility in Youth Sports
44:51 Development vs. Competition
48:01 Digital Solutions for Skill Development
57:46 Final Thoughts and Advice for Sports Parents
Jason Jacobs: Today on The Next Next, our guests are Matt Kingsley and Tobin Anderson. Matt is the associate head coach for the Yale men's basketball team, and he's played an integral role in the most successful stretch in the long history of the team over the last 10 seasons. They posted a .771 winning percentage, won six Ivy Championships four Ivy League tournament titles and earned five NCAA tournament births.
Tobin, on the other hand, is currently. A special assistant to the head coach at University of South Florida's men's basketball team. And, he brings with him nearly three decades of experience as a head coach and assistant across all levels of college basketball. He spent a couple years, most recently as head coach at Iona.
Which included an upset of number one seed Quinnipiac and the semifinals to reach the championship game. He also was head coach at Farley Dickinson, where the number 16 seeded Knights had an unforgettable NCAA tournament run, including a first four [00:01:00] win over Texas Southern, and one of the biggest upsets in tournament upsets in tournament history.
A first round victory over number one Purdue in 2023. Now here's two guys that played the game. And had great careers. They've been coaches at all levels of college basketball over the last several decades. They're also both dads of athletes, and I was psyched for this discussion to hear about their journeys in the sport, how their journeys were different than the players coming up today.
What they've been seeing as coaches in terms of the types of players that, that make it through the ranks and play the game at the highest levels. , And also just the state of use, sports and the good, the bad, the ugly, what the implications are for coaches, for programs, for families, for kids, and for these guys as fathers.
It's a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it. Matt Tobin, welcome to the show.
Tobin Anderson: What's up Jay?
Matt Kingsley: What's going on? Jason? Good to see you.
Jason Jacobs: [00:02:00] Nice to see you. This is going to be a difficult one for me to get through. I'm just gonna put that out there. I went to school with you guys. We haven't caught up in a long time. So, you know, podcasts aside, I'm just really psyched to catch up with you guys and, and also it just happens that the areas that I'm thinking about around athlete development, and granted I'm starting in hockey and Tobin probably knows this and that.
You definitely know how little of a basketball guy I am. But but even though I'm starting hockey, I think there's a lot of parallels just with athletes across sports. And I also just think it's useful no matter what sport you're starting in, to understand best practices and state of the state and others because it's learnings that can be.
Brought across. So with that, yeah, just thank you guys for coming on the show and, and maybe just some intros in terms of, um, what you're up to currently and, and your, your path in the sport in, uh, in 30 seconds or less. No, just joking. Tobin, maybe go first.
Tobin Anderson: Yeah, so I'm now, I'm an assistant coach at University of South Florida. [00:03:00] I was the head coach. I've been a head coach at, at division three for 12 years at, at Clarkson and Hamilton. Hamilton and Es CAC as well. And then, uh, division two head coach, St. Thomas Quin for nine years, and then division one at both FDU and Iona.
So I've, I've been a head coach at all three levels. So I, I mean, my background's a little bit crazy as far as, um, I've, uh, gone from, from division three non-scholarship to division one, highest level. And I'm an assistant, I'm been assistant at all levels too. So it's a, it is been quite a journey and, uh, I think the journey's not done yet.
I've got more to do. So I'm excited, excited about the future, but, uh, it's been a good. It's been a good run and, and, uh, since my Wesleyan days and, and, um, I always knew I wanted to coach. I didn't know how things would go. It's gone. It's a, it's a crazy path, but, uh, it's been, it's been really good to me. So I'm, I'm happy to be where I'm at, but I've got, uh, I'm excited about the future.
Jason Jacobs: Matt.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah, my, uh, my background is very different from that. I've been at Yale for 20 years. This will be my 21st season. Uh, I've been the associate [00:04:00] head coach here for the last 13 or 14. I, I'm not even sure. And, um, it's been a great experience here. We built this program from, you know, a middle of the Pack Ivy team to, we've won eight of the last 10 championships.
Been to the NCAA tournament a bunch of times, won games in the NCAA tournament. Uh, so it's been really cool. And, uh, my daughter's a freshman here at Yale, so it's, it's all been worth it. So yeah, I, I've been in one place for the last 20 years.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, so your, your Yale career is uh, would be a college sophomore, or in hockey, would be like a junior in high school. So
Tobin Anderson: He didn't, er didn't mention his first job though, which I'm, I'm surprised he didn't do it. His first job was, was we were working together at Clarkson. So my, my first assistant in our first, his first job, we were, we were together up at Clarkson building the, building, the program up there. So that was our, we were together, you know, 20 was, must it [00:05:00] 30 years ago, 25 years
Matt Kingsley: Yeah, that's true. That was my first job. My, my second job outta college. My first job I worked for a consulting company for, for nine months and I got laid off and then Tobin got his first head coaching job. And, and asked if I would come up to Clarkson, be his assistant, which I did. And that was awesome. I learned a ton and um, we had a great time up there.
That was a lot of fun to think, especially to think back upon. And
Tobin Anderson: best, best year in school history by, in the past it hadn't been 520. Five years, which is nuts, right? For this college team had not been 525 years. We were 14. 14 and 12 was like we won the national championship where we were 500. I was like, yes, that was great.
Matt Kingsley: yeah.
Jason Jacobs: So, I mean, I know, I know both you guys have kids. And I I also know that, that you guys both of course, came up the development path as kids at one point, might have been a few years ago, but playing the game at a, at a pretty serious level. Um, uh, I'm just curious, [00:06:00] especially sitting where you sit what are some of the biggest changes that you've seen in terms of the development path for basketball players coming up and then, um, what are some positives with the state of the state there, and maybe what are some of the things that, that aren't so good about the, the evolved state of the game?
Tobin Anderson: It's a loaded question, right? So I, I was actually thinking about this yesterday 'cause I saw, I saw an interview like, so I grew up in Iowa. I'm from the Midwest, small town, small area, right? And everybody played a lot of sports. Like we had guys playing, you know, guys, everybody played baseball. We played, 'cause we had to, to have a team in, in, in Interstate 35 high school.
We had to, guys had to play baseball, had to play football, had to play basketball. One of my best friends was went to Iowa and played, played basketball, was also an Allstate football player. Allstate baseball player. Ran track and field. And now you see guys who just play one sport, guys and girls who just do one thing, that's all they do. You know, if you're a basketball player, all you do is play basketball. 'cause you play summer, you play fall, you play, you play during your season. [00:07:00] And it's become so specialized in that regard. I think there's a lot of value in playing other sports. I think there's a lot of value in, in, in, um, in a, in a break, a mental break too.
Like sometimes, you know, obviously me and Matt recruit at a pretty high level in college and like, you see these guys and they're, and they're playing every weekend somewhere. You know, they're, they're, they're flying to California, they're flying to Kansas City, they're playing in a tournament here or there.
So I think. They're just, they're just almost like, it's almost too much. Right? I think it's, it's too much playing and not enough like development. And you know, when I was, when I grew up where I was at, like most of my development as a player was by myself. I was in a gym by myself or on the outdoor court by myself.
Or I'd go play, you know, go play at a local college and play against other college players, other high school players. And we just do that kind of randomly. Now everything is so organized and everybody's got a skill trainer and everybody's got a an organized tournament this weekend. Almost like too much of that going on where just like, you know, more, it's more fun sometimes just go to the gym by yourself or with a [00:08:00] buddy and just play.
So I think the, the, the, the specializations hurt kids a little bit. And I think the fact that there's less, less, um, just random playing, less random, just going, going to the gym and to do that kinda thing. Now the, the positive thing is there's a lot more access to things, right? There's a lot more access to, if you wanna play, you can go play in a tournament every weekend.
When I played AU back in Iowa, we had the AAU nationals. We had one tournament. You know, you go play one tournament and if you got beat, you're done. And if you won, you would advance to something else. And now you could play someplace every weekend, you know, and you go play in Pennsylvania and go play in New York or play in New Jersey.
And it's, it is crazy. So there's more access, there's more, there's more stuff on, on obviously on, on, uh, social media, on, on, on YouTube, on, you can get any kind of drill. You wanna get better. One of the best shooters I've ever been around is Matt Kingsley. Matt Matt's an unbelievable shooter, right? And like, if you want to become a great shooter, you can go on YouTube and find 50 shooting you know how [00:09:00] to get better, how to improve, how to he didn't have that kind of access.
When he was growing up, he had to either, you know, a parent or a coach, had to show him how to shoot. Now you can go get all that stuff off the, off the internet. So there's more access to teaching, learning drills, things like that in all sports and all aspects of life. But, sometimes too much of that is not a good thing either.
So that's just my, my thoughts.
Jason Jacobs: What about you, Matt? I'm sure you've got thoughts on this topic.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah, no, I, I agree with Tobin wholeheartedly. You know, kids are playing, more, more so one sport than multiple sports. Everybody has their trainers, they have their strength coach, they have their like agility coach. They have. You know, they're, they're doing three sessions a day of that, concentrated to that sport.
You know, whether it's like a weightlifting session and speeding conditioning session in the morning, and then they're shooting, and then they have their practice in the evening. You know, so they're, they're in the gym all the time. And, there's a lot of stuff that's focused on them with [00:10:00] social media.
Like, they'll get in the gym and then they'll be like, aspiring cameramen or, or, or Instagram people just filming for free just to put their portfolio together. And then, you know, those Instagram people will, will get a name and then they'll offer to the kids in the gym, Hey I'll do this for you for 20 bucks.
And so there's a whole business around putting these videos out for, for kids. And the kids get obsessed with it and they're looking at, Twitter and Instagram all the time. And probably the biggest. Aspect of it that, I don't know that it's negative, but it, maybe it's neutral, but it's just like all of this stuff had, has so much more parental involvement.
Whereas like Toman was talking about going to the park and playing and you just figured things out, you know? And if you weren't good enough, you didn't play. There was no parent there. And then, you know, eventually there was nine guys there and you were the 10th. So you got on the court and then, and [00:11:00] then you, and then you started to play more from that, from that point, you made the 10th, you made, you made 10, 'cause you tend to play five on five.
But now there's so much parental involvement and so whether it's like an open gym where the parents are mediating or just like, parents as coaches and, and I don't think that's a good thing at a young age. And it's also not a good thing to, I. Be playing organized all the time, you know, playing in tournaments every weekend.
It's organized and there's eyes on you and there, and there's coaches. Like you need to go out and play and pick up games where there's no pressure, there's no stakes, there's no real stakes. You know what I mean? It's like you can experiment, you can test the boundaries of what you can do and try to get better at those things without, without like the pressure of, playing for the brackets or the championship of the weekends that you're in.
Uh, and so I, I think a, a lot is lost, you know, with, with the organization of it and the parental involvement as [00:12:00] well.
Jason Jacobs: So that changing landscape, on the one hand there's been changes in sport, right?
There's more privatization, there's stuff like NIL, but then from a bigger picture standpoint, like when we grew up, it was more like free range kids. Like you just have a lot more downtime to go ride your bike wherever you want and play in the neighborhood. I dunno about you guys, but if my kids went to play in the neighborhood now they'd be playing by themselves because there's no other kids around, right?
Why? Because all the other kids are overscheduled doing all those things that you just said, right? And so. It's a little bit like you know, even if you want it, you know, you're longing for a yester year that doesn't exist anymore. So why do you think that is, and how much of that is sports specific versus kind of broader societal changes?
Tobin Anderson: That's a great question. Right. But you're right though. I mean, I haven't even thought about that. Like, you in, in the neighborhood, you don't see, there's not people out there, not kids are hanging around. They're not doing things like that anymore. You know, I mean, like, geez, I used to when I was a kid, like, you know, let's, we're starting to get our age a little bit too much, but, but it's like, you know, I just make a, make a phone call and, hey, let's [00:13:00] go to the gym.
Let's go play, let's go, let's go to like Matsa, let's go to the park and we'll go play. If there, if there's two of us there, we'll play one-on-one and if people show up, we'll play five on five. Like, you don't, you don't see that as much anymore. I think that's probably a societal thing, right? Everybody's got so much shit going on.
Right. It's like, there's so many things going, I mean, my, my family, like my, we got, this, we got my, my daughter's got dance and then she's got the cheerleading and she's got, you know, tutoring and she's got this all, you know, college prep stuff. And so there's a lot going on for all of them.
And almost, and it's like, it's like Matt said, it's so scripted. It's, it's not like just figuring stuff out for yourself, you know? I mean, I got up the morning. When I was a kid and just did whatever the hell I wanted to do. You know, if you wanted to go to the park, when you go to the park and play, wanna go, wanna go shoot you, go shoot, I wanna go, you know, I used to go fishing all the time.
I wanna go fishing, I'll just go ride my bike out to a lake and go fishing. Like, you just, you don't have, now it's like everything's organized almost too much, you know? And so, I laugh 'cause of, of the, and, and there's more, so many people involved, and especially you get to like, you know, the higher levels of like, even high school, like, everybody's [00:14:00] got like a trainer and they've got a, and they've got their, their, uh, mentors and, and you know, somebody's trying to advise them on NIL stuff and things like, there's just so many people involved.
And like, I don't, for me, when I picked a school, when I did things, it was me, it was my parents and that was it, you know? And my dad was my high school coach, so I had a little bit of a, you know, my coach was also my father, but like now he's, you know, you talk to, you go recruiting and you're talking to 10 different people about, you know, making decisions.
And obviously, you know, at Yale. You get a little more where he, where Matt's at, you get a little more guy. They're a little more centered on the education and on the, and that thing. But I just think there's so many people involved and so many and how many people really care about your best interests, right?
How many really care about what's important to you. So yeah, I think there's, I think that with the youth sport thing, it just, it just becomes so, so, um, too organized almost too, too, uh, too many, too much stuff going on.
Matt Kingsley: It's, it's big business now. You see these big companies buying up, [00:15:00] uh, these small, organizations that run, local tournaments. And now big companies are buying up all these small organizations and they're running tournaments every weekend. You know, from a standpoint that's like more professionalized, you know, they have it down to a science.
They, they're, they're forming leagues and it just. It, it's become big business.
Jason Jacobs: I've got another set of questions I'm tempted to dig into, but before I go there, I want, I I want to ask you guys, so you've talked about some of the negatives of how things are different. Are there any positives to it? And if so, what?
Matt Kingsley: Yeah, there, there's positives. I don't know. I, I actually, I can't even say that this is necessarily positive, but there are some positives to it. There so many kids are playing, like when you look at basketball, there's so many kids playing basketball, and that's a great thing, right?
It's a great sport. It's fun. But I think that puts a lot of pressure on the kids too. Like there's, there's so [00:16:00] much competition out there to, to play on certain teams to get recruited. You know, we just had, we just had our, uh, elite camp at Yale and we had a hundred and. 35 kids on Saturday and 110 kids on Sunday.
High, high school level. Kids that want to be recruited by Yale. We have all the high academic division three coaches in the gym and there's a lot of good players in the gym. A few for us to look at a lot for division three level schools to look at, you know, a lot that can play somewhere in between division two you know, division one at some level.
But there's a lot of good players that aren't gonna get recruited. And, when we played, I think good players got recruited. Now there's a lot of good players that don't get recruited. So again, like there's a positive to it that, you know, a lot of kids are playing the sport and it's a great sport and it's fun and they'll get a lot out of it.
They'll learn life lessons but there'll be some disappointment out there too.[00:17:00]
Tobin Anderson: Yeah, I think,
Jason Jacobs: any positives.
Tobin Anderson: yeah, I mean, I think a lot of these kids are getting to do things that, you know, we could never dream to do. Like a lot of these tournaments sometimes are across the country. You go play in California, go play in Vegas, go play mean I gotta get guys gonna Switzerland for this summer for, we have three of our recruits gonna Switzerland to play over in a tournament over there.
I mean, there's, there's more. You gonna do a lot of fun things, you know. It's funny 'cause like at Wesley, and I don't, I don't, we didn't go any place for any tournaments we went to. We went to, one time we went down to, um, to Moravian to play in the pen some tournament outside of Penn, Philadelphia in some awful tournament, you know, and, and these guys are going to Hawaii and they're going to all these, you know, these incredible spots.
And so, but then that takes a little bit of the, the fun of when they get to college and saying, well, hey, we're going to The Bahamas. Well, I. For like, we're gonna play in the battle for Atlantis this year, right? Well, half our team's already been in The Bahamas for something else, so for another tournament or whatever.
So they're not, they're not as excited about that as, as, as we would've been. So, but there's a lot more things you can do, a lot more, like I said, a lot more access. If you want to play all the time, you can play all the time. You know, [00:18:00] that part, that part's good. And, and I think a little bit of, when I was growing up, I, I wanted to, I wish we could have played more games.
Well, now you can play as many games you want to, but there's, uh, and I, I do agree with what Matt said too. Like, my son, he's a freshman. He's gonna be a sophomore in college. He ended up being a really good runner, but he was a, he was a very average basketball player. He couldn't make the varsity basketball team at his high school, but he could still play AAU and still go play in tournaments and things like that.
So I think no matter what your level is, there's still, there's some, some place where you can play. Now part of that is everybody's making money, right? So they, you know, an AAU tournament's gonna have 160 teams come 'cause they're all paying $500 to go play in some tournament. So they're, they're happy to take your money and say, Hey, go play in the, in the C division or the D division, or whatever.
But it gives more opportunities for kids who are maybe not quite good enough to play in their high school teams, a chance to go play. So there is more, there's more of that going on.
Jason Jacobs: So here's the set of questions I wanted to ask you guys. So I, I am hearing about, it's too specialized, it's privatized. Everyone's got their hand in your wallet at leads to burnout, at [00:19:00] leads to overuse injuries. It, you know, it leads to too much sacrifice in other parts of your life. In the long term you know, it's better to have the variety and, you know, more friendships, more experiences, everything else, right?
But then. Who are the kids that end up rising to the radar of, of you guys from a recruiting standpoint? I bet. And tell me if I'm wrong, that it's the specialized kids who are doing all the things that you guys are advocating not to do. And so it's a little bit like, well, don't hate the play or hate the game.
Right? Like we can talk about how the system should be different. But the system is what it is. So if you actually want to play at a high level, these are the things you need to do. No.
Matt Kingsley: I, I would argue that,
Tobin Anderson: Go ahead.
Matt Kingsley: I would argue that it's probably gonna be the same kids, regardless of whether, the system changed because Yeah. You know, like basketball,
Jason Jacobs: it's like Nature 95 and Nurture five.
Matt Kingsley: well, you know, basketball and, and you know, hockey players are big, strong kids too, right? So like a lot of it is about your physical attributes that [00:20:00] you know, are God given, so to speak. So. And then, and then you're gonna, if you're in that position, you put some work into it, but you, you could play multiple sports and still get recruited by Yale.
You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're gonna recognize the talent. I think.
Jason Jacobs: So if you look, and we'll get to your perspective in a minute, Toban, but just just so that I understand. If you look at the roster at Yale and other competitive programs at the division one level, are the vast majority of those kids kids that had God given talent. And so, yeah, I mean, they'll put in some work and stuff, but like they're not gonna outwork everyone else and make all the sacrifice and, and do all the things, or are there, is there a percentage?
And if so, what percentage of kids that maybe weren't the ones with the God-given talent, but just like busted their ass in a sustained way over a long period of time.
Matt Kingsley: yeah, I mean there, it's gonna be a mixture of the two. But there's definitely the late bloomers that didn't put the time in, that you recognize the [00:21:00] talent and, and those are the guys you take a chance on. Because for us, like we're not the highest level, we're a high level, but we're not the highest level and the highest level is gonna gonna pass on certain guys that have, a lot of talent or, or show, uh, show ability.
But, but they're not quite there yet. But if we recognize that ability, then, you know, we could tap into it and, and help them reach their potential.
Jason Jacobs: Tobin.
Tobin Anderson: Well, this is what I would say, right? The level we coach at that I, I've coached at, you know, division one level, right? That's like 1% of all student athletes. We're talking about the top of the top like, like I worked my ass off. To play division three. Matt did too. I mean, we, we were really good players and we worked our tails off.
So like, yeah, I mean, for the top 1%, like you probably do need to be in the weight room. You probably do need to have a strength coach. You probably do need to, to have an, all that stuff helps. No, what you're saying, there's no doubt about, I [00:22:00] was talking to a guy for plays for us who's a shoot great shooter.
And I said, how'd you shoot the ball like that? He is like, I would get in the gym and shoot 500 shots a day, um, or 500 shots a session three times a day. 1500 shots with a trainer. That extra work, he couldn't play baseball, he couldn't play football, he had to do the basketball stuff. So what you're saying is right, but we're talking about for the good of society, for, for the good of youth sports, we're talking about 1%.
Most kids can't play division one. Most kids, most student athletes can't play. Anywhere in college, it's hard to play Division three and Division three. Division two, division one, any if you can play in college, you're a hell of a player. You've worked your tail off just to get to that level. So most high school student athletes aren't gonna play in college.
You know, I used to always laugh. We have a camp, you know, you have a youth camp at your, at your, at your camp and they have, you know, kids come in and I'd say one of these kids will play in college. The rest might, might be a good high school player, might be a good, you know, might be a on, on the team in high school, might be a part of a a middle school team or something like that.
So it depends on what we're talking about, right? If we're talking about the [00:23:00] top 1%, yeah, you probably have to, the specialization definitely helps you, but overall for youth sports and things like that is a benefit to playing. And like you gotta be realistic about where you can play at, right? Like I knew pretty early on I couldn't play at Louisville or Alabama or, or, or uh, Kentucky, right?
So like if you can't play at that level, why not go play baseball and go do something else just to be able to have a great experience, so that's my thoughts.
Jason Jacobs: A few things I want to press on there. One is you hear this narrative, don't go to like the Facebook message boards for your, you know, like the Massachusetts Youth Hockey page, or I would imagine there's like a similar one for basketball or whatever. Like, it's a, it's a hornet's nest, but but one of the things that you see on there is like.
Your kid is not going to the show, so, so they should just have fun. Um, and that's like the, that they're just saying that uniformly across the board, but like some people make it, right? And so if the people that [00:24:00] actually made the show had that mindset when they were little, then they never would've made the show because they wouldn't have believed that it was possible.
Right? So that's one thread I wanna pull on. And then the other one is, at least in hockey, and I dunno if the same thing's happening in in basketball, but it, they're like picking winners when they're like six years old, right? Um, in terms of like these elite clubs that then lead to elite clubs at the next level, which lead to elite clubs at the next level and that, right?
And it's like putting a bunch of frogs in a pot and turning up the flame and like knowing that most are gonna fry and seeing if one or two can top out. And um, and I guess what you hear from parents who have. Kids that have been through the shoot before, right? Is, is like, oh, at this age you don't even know what you've got because everything changes with puberty, dating parties checking, right?
Check checking. Something you hear about in hockey that changes the game so you don't know what you've got. Right? And so, I guess reconcile those two things. The not, you know, the, the, like, if everyone assumed that it wasn't gonna be them, then no one would make it kind of thing. And, and then the second part is how do you know from the early stage [00:25:00] that you're not gonna play When everyone says the landscape gets flipped on its head once, all those, you know, once all that life happens anyways.
Tobin Anderson: You don't, you don't. So you gotta work your, you gotta work your tail off to, to, to, to, to be as good as you can be. Like I said, maybe you, you try to be a division one player and end up being a division three player. And that's, that's great too. We all, we all play division three and love, love division three.
So like, there's nothing wrong with that at all. But it's like that book, the talent code, right? You read the talent code, it's like a, the, the people who, you know, when you're six years old, you, they put you on elite team, elite kids get the elite coaching and they get better, they play better competition.
So the elite ones become even, even more elite. Like I that point is well taken, right? And like, listen, life favors guys who are bigger, stronger, faster, quicker. You know, you can watch a youth youth soccer game. You can see the best player probably in about 30 seconds. Who's gonna be the best athlete?
You know, I, I went to watch soccer one time. My, my daughter was gonna play and, and there's a loose ball and she's the last person to get. I'm like, well, she probably won't be a soccer player. I could tell about, about a minute that she was not gonna be gonna be elite. Yeah, I mean that, that [00:26:00] thing's, all that stuff sorts itself out, it depends on your personality, like to, to play in college, you're, you're so driven.
Like, I wanted, I wanted to play in the NBA, so my, I'm like, I was driven and like, that was not realistic, but you couldn't have told me that. So I'm gonna work my ass off to be as good as I can be. And like, even not making that level just to be able to play anywhere in college was, was pretty satisfying for me.
So I think a, that stuff works itself out and like, you know, I like like, leave the, to me, the parents should stay out of it. The parents are the ones sometimes who are pushing their kid, Hey, I want you to do this. I want you to be this. Let the kid decide what they want to do, let them, let them make their decisions based on what their, what their, what their goals and their motivations are.
It's not, it's not for the parent to decide or for, for the, for, for some you know, we get a lot of that in, in basketball. A lot of, uh, you know, hangers on saying, Hey, you should do this, you should do that. Like, let the, let the kids make their own decisions. And so that's, that's kind of been taken away as time's gone on.
Jason Jacobs: Matt.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah. [00:27:00] I mean, I think at a certain point, you, your, your love for it and your commitment to it takes over. But you know, as I was saying before, like basketball is, is so, is so athletic and size based that you're not always the one that's gonna get to the next level because of your hard work. Because if you're seven feet tall, you may not have worked that hard, but you're seven feet tall and like you can run and jump. Or, uh, you know, you're just a great, you're, you're a great athlete. You know, you got a seven foot wing, sp you're six six with a seven point wingspan and you're a great athlete. You know what I mean? You may not have worked that hard, but you have those gifts. But in order to, in order to continue to compete at that level and, you know, reach the potential that, you know, a coach saw in you, your love and your commitment has to take over for sure.
Tobin Anderson: That's what I would say too, Jason. Just like from my standpoint, I'm sure Matt was saying like, I, I play, I love to play a lot. I [00:28:00] love Matt still plays. I mean, I can't play anymore, man. We, we'd go to the final four, me and Matt, we'd go, we'd go find a pickup game and play and play, uh, play pick. We're 40, you know, 45 years old.
So a lot of it's just gonna be, you love to play. Who cares what all the future and all that kind of stuff's gonna be. Just go play 'cause you love it.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah. And, and for I've always thought that I. Having, having my sport like basketball for me and for my son, it's the same thing for my daughter. It was something different. But if you have that one thing that you can learn all these lessons from, you can learn how to work hard. You can learn how to, uh, rebound from failure and pick yourself up.
You know, when, when you're pushed down or, or, or you don't accomplish your goals and you can learn how to work with other people towards a common goal. You, you know, you learn all these lessons, but you need something that is that vehicle that you learn from it. And so like, that's what basketball or your sport can be for you.
You know, some, for some people it's an instrument. For some people [00:29:00] it's a sub a subject field. And, you know, so I'm thankful for that I have that and that my son has that. And I, I think that's the goal for kids is to find that something that they can learn life lessons from.
Jason Jacobs: Well, if you, if you, you know, I wrestle with this because you, you hear the stories of of grownups who played the sport competitively. The level almost doesn't matter for this example, but at a, at a high level, somewhere, some sport doesn't even matter to the sport either. And they say none of this came from my parents.
My parents were working all the time anyways. I was so self-directed. I wanted from the youngest age, like. They never pushed me, but they supported me and they made sure I had access to all the resources, but all the motivation came from me. And then you hear about other kid, parents or whatever, grownups looking back on their journeys and they say the opposite.
They say like, yeah, I was a screw up. I didn't have my stuff together. I would've gotten into this bad thing. I would've gotten into that bad thing. But I credit my parents with [00:30:00] guiding me and keeping the train on the tracks and holding me accountable and setting a framework and pushing me every step of the way because I never got to, would've got to where I am without that pushing structure and, and direction.
Which is right. Is there a one size fits all or is it just like, every kid is different, every family is different. Like, how do you know as a parent what that Goldilocks balance is for, for your kid, given all the contradictory narratives that are flying around?
Matt Kingsley: It is just cliche, like if you care more you know about it than you're a kid, then that's probably an issue. I look at it like the, the, to me, the right. The right balance is like when you put guardrails up on a bowling, on a bowling alley, like you're just the bowl, the ball can roll all over the bowling alley track. just putting those guardrails up to make sure it doesn't go off the track, off the a off the bowling alley. So, if, if, if you're making sure that your kid [00:31:00] like bowls a strike every time you're probably, you know, too much. You know, you're just, you're just supposed to guide. You gotta let them make mistakes.
You gotta let them fail and, and, and know what that feels like. And you know, so I think it's,
Tobin Anderson: that felt
Matt Kingsley: a little bit hand more hands off.
Tobin Anderson: that failure part is, is such a huge part of things too. Like you have to fail. Like, I mean, my, my now my dad was pretty, my dad was my coach, right? So I had a little bit different situation. My dad was my high school coach with him all the time. But like he, he was constantly, like nothing was given to me at all.
Like, it was always like, you know, hey, almost harder to be. Playing for your father? Almost like more, more difficult, more demanding. He was almost harder on me than he was the rest of the team. But I see a lot of parents who are like, you know, they, they, they, they give their kids, they know, make it easy for them and give them situ.
I mean, put 'em in, in perfect situations. And like, I think back to when I played for my dad, my grown, my, my dad, like failure was a great thing for me in the long run. I learned how to, you know, to deal with all that kinda stuff and, and not be told that things were perfect and not be [00:32:00] told things were great.
And so when I co so I coached my son. I think I, me, me and Matt have had this discussion. I think he was in the fourth grade. I coached his AU team. And it was hard, really hard 'cause I was trying to kinda be like my father, but, but, but my son was not like me and I was not like my father. So it was just, it, we kind of butted heads a little bit and I tried to like, give him space or whatever.
And the best thing he ever did was he started running across country and started doing track and field. And, um, I didn't know anything about that at all. I had, I just go to the meets and watch the meets and I had no advice. I had no, I didn't even know how, how it worked. And I just loved watching him run and just enjoyed watching him do his thing.
And he kind of found his own path. But I think the, the basketball part helped us get to that point where it's like, I learned how to kinda like, alright, just let him do his, let him be himself. I can't push him. Let him figure out his own, his own journey. And it made our, our relationship a hell of a lot better when he started doing more of that stuff.
But it's, it's hard. Like, I mean, every, I think, and I think there's no, you can't paint things with a broad brush and say, well, it's, this [00:33:00] is, it's every parent's different, every kid's different. But I, I think when you see a bad situation, like, you know it, like we see it all the time. You see a, a dad after a game, hitting, you know, killing his kid, like, oh, you should have done this, you should have done that.
Like, let let the kid figure that out. You know, or you see a parents coaching for the sidelines, we see it in AU all the time. You know, a kid will miss his shot and look over to his parent as opposed to look over to his coach. That's not a good situation. That's un, that's unhealthy. And, um, so you, you kind of know it when you see it.
Jason Jacobs: So back to the, your point before Tobin about the talent code. Uh, I also wrestle with that, right? Because on the one hand it's like, let the kids be kids and figure this out and drive their own shit. But then to your point, Matt, like it isn't the kid. It's the kid and the dad, right? Um, and, and part of that is because everyone's doing all this, you know, they got to this coach and then that coach and then this tournament, and then that tournaments like.
You know, when the kid is eight years old or 12 years old or whatever, like the kid's not driving, right? The kid [00:34:00] isn't the keeper of their own schedule. Right. The kid doesn't, they're not paying, right? Like there's, you know, there's, there's a lot that comes into it. And, um, and it, and these have real implications on like, family budgets, family logistics, family planning, right?
And so the parent has to be involved. It can't be like it was when we were growing up. So I guess my question is, um, and you, you touched on some of it, but just the, the, the kid is not gonna know what tournament should I do and how, what should I sit out? Like, should I do multisport or should I do single sport?
Like should, which coaches should I work with for this set of things? Like how much is overkill for my age? Right? And so, like at what point should the kid be fully self-directed? Like when does that start? Right? And then before the kid. Is is capable of being fully self-directed. How do you navigate that as a parent, right?
Because they need some direction, but you also wanna make sure that you know that you're not just living vicariously and chasing your own dreams when the kid is miserable. So, I don't know, what do you guys think?
Tobin Anderson: I think, and I think I've, Matt and I've talked about [00:35:00] this as well, like if your kid has a good coach, a good, like things like youth, youth coaches are so important. And I've had, I've seen bad youth coaches, I've seen good youth coaches. It is just, it's, it's so much easier if that, if your, if your son or daughter has a youth coach who like you can trust and say, listen, just, they're setting a good example.
They're saying the right things. Listen to your coach. That, and like, it's, it's incredible what you can, that, that can take you outta the picture a a lot, and sometimes youth coaches aren't very good. We've had, we've had bad youth coaches too, but I think a lot of times, like if you can say, Hey, you know, you're playing for, I don't care if you're third, third grade softball, right?
But your coach is saying the right things. Work harder, be resilient, be tough, have fun, all the right things. Then like, listen, just just listen to your coach. That's the most important thing. Let the coach handle 80% of what goes on. Then you kind of give advice on the, on the like on the guard, the guardrail kind of thing.
Right? But the concern is sometimes when you have a bad youth coach and, and it, it's no one's fault. It just, it's just hard to find good youth coaches. But I think I, I've seen some great. Youth Co in, in my, with my two [00:36:00] kids, I've, we've had some coaches, coaches and teachers who are just, and that's when I say coaches, teachers the same way too, right?
You have, you have, sometimes you have a great third grade teacher, fourth grade teacher. That person can have more of an effect on your ki on Sutter daughter than you could almost have. Because they're with them all, you know, every, every day in class and all the situations and things. And I remember my dad used to tell me all the time, like, I know your kid better than, than you know, your kid.
Because I see them in every situation after a win, after a loss. When things are going well, having to, to, to play a role. So sometimes that coach knows the kid better than the parents do. And so I, I think having a, a good youth coach to me can be invaluable.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah,
Jason Jacobs: Well, I'm dying, I'm dying to ask you this question, Matt, because you told me before we started recording that you know, that you're, you're pretty involved with, with your son and his sports and that it's really special time for you two. So, how do you contrast that with with Tobin's advice to be hands off?
Matt Kingsley: No, I think you try to be hands off. You know, I, I think when they start playing it at a more [00:37:00] serious level or, or enter into that serious level, it's like middle school into high school. Like you're, you're hands on at that point. 'cause your child lives with you. You know what I mean? So it's built in when, when you really gotta try to take step, a step back.
'cause when they go away to college, but there's a learning curve. You're trying to help your, your, your child understand, Hey, hey, there's a wide range of coaches out there. Like my, my son, one of his biggest things is he, he has such a high expectation of coaching because. Since he was zero years old, he was listening to recruiting conversations with families and, and, and listening to phone conversations of college coaching staffs and how to navigate, scouting reports.
Like he, it, it's like part of his being, he comes to practice and he knows immediately, like he would literally, like as a, as an 8-year-old playing youth basketball, he would dribble the ball up the court. He would pass to the wing. He would naturally pass and [00:38:00] cut through to the other side. As an 8-year-old, it was, I, I was like, astonished.
But that's what he was used to seeing and he just internalized it from being around, you know, our team where you don't pass and stand and, but you try to help your kid understand, look like through youth sports and middle school and high school and a a u there's gonna be a wide range of coaches and you, you gotta understand that, the coaching may be very good in this aspect, but not good in this, this aspect.
But it's like, for me, it's like they're, they're mostly all pretty acceptable, and if they're not acceptable, then I'll let you know, and you'll hear about it from me. So I'm trying to help him understand that like, all these experiences are good. You gotta learn how to play for coaches that, you know, maybe lack in this area.
You gotta learn how to play for, you know, uh, play with a team that has players that you know, like it is more one-on-one or they're not capable of, of doing certain things, you know? And so for a player [00:39:00] like your, your, your child, they gotta learn how to be a role player. They gotta learn how to be, you know, the best player who can score a lot.
They gotta learn how to, you know, play in, in all kinds of different scenarios. And so, through their experiences, they're gonna get these different environments and they're all valuable. And so if you don't get all those experiences, then you're, you're gonna be lacking in some areas. So you really gotta embrace the different coaches that you get and, and learn how to work through those trials and tribulations.
You gotta embrace the different, uh, teams that you play on where your role is different. You know, even sitting the bench and not playing, like, you gotta learn what that feels like. And so, as a parent, I think you're just guiding them, you know? So like, I, I, I train my son but I try to be hands off and I try to just help him understand how it's gonna work and just like, like I said, be guardrails on the bowling alley.
Like, I'm not trying to be that [00:40:00] involved, you know, I want him to work through things on him on his own. I want to give him the tools to work through things on his own. And that's the other thing is that every kid is different, my, my mine, mine has a high expectation of coaching. He, he also, he also ha has a temper sometimes o other, other kids.
Jason Jacobs: Shocking. That is shocking.
Matt Kingsley: other kids handle, other kids handle things like so well they just roll with all the different things that occur. And so, you know, you gotta understand your kid too. You know, there's a lot of moving parts.
Tobin Anderson: It's, it is funny you're talking about that. 'cause I'm like, wait, we're, we're kind of, our kids are kind of Matt's. Kid's Lucky. Eli's lucky. His dad's one of the best coaches in the country. Like his dad's one of the best shooting coach. I mean, he has to listen to his dad. I mean, why would you listen to somebody else who can't teach shooting when his go home and his father can, can teach him?
So I think sometimes the kid's gotta understand maybe like, Hey, my dad knows a little bit more than most fathers know, you know, so I gotta, I gotta listen, listen to them. So we're, we're kind of in a unique situation because we are college [00:41:00] coaches.
Jason Jacobs: That's another thing I wanted to talk to you guys about. So, one of the things that I, so let's assume now that it's a kid who's self-directed and wants it right for those kids, is a travel component, right? So there's, there's a, a money component, there's a logistics component, and then there's an expertise component, which is like what what, um, what we were just talking about.
And so, and maybe this isn't true, but like the, it's exaggerated, right? But like, but like the narrative is that growing up it was the best players that went the furthest right? And now it's not the best players, it's the best players amongst the rich that, that go the furthest. So, my question for you guys is do you think there's an accessibility problem in terms of the players that have the natural talent, but either don't have the dollars, don't have the logistics, or don't have the guidance, right?
Are they handicapped? And if so, what can we do about it to try to do our best to make sure that it is the most talented players that progress the furthest in the game?
Matt Kingsley: I think that issue does [00:42:00] exist. I think. There's a trend towards just playing more convenient and local tournaments and, and having less tra I, I think that it's trending that way and, and I think that's the best way to do it. I, I think like if you're good coaches will find you and, I don't think kids should be traveling three hours each way to practice with their a a u team twice a week and, and then doing all this travel.
I think it should be an easier scenario, an easier situation. So I, I think things are moving that way just because there's so many good players out there and they can't all be concentrated at one event or, or like in the case of basketball, it's like Nike, Adidas and Under Armour, you know, and then, and Pu Puma's Puma's trying to get into the mix and, and, and.
So there's three to three to four good leagues, but there's so many good players out there that they can't all be concentrated in those three to four leagues. [00:43:00] So there's a lot of good players everywhere, which means that I think they're gonna be dispersed and, and it's gonna take the pressure off all that travel, and I hope it continues to go that way.
Because I think that'll solve some of the problem that you're talking about because it does exist currently.
Tobin Anderson: I am laughing when you start asking that question. 'cause my, my, my, uh, niece is a really good soccer player. She gonna be a, and it should be a division one soccer player, whatever. And so they, they were out in Colorado last year and playing some tournament and just got drilled like six, nothing or whatever.
And my, my, my brother who's, who tends to say what he feels all the time, said, Hey, I could, I could pay five grand just to get our ass kicked 30 minutes away. You know, why do we need to go to Colorado and get beat six? Nothing. I just stay, just stay local, right? So it's like, I do agree, like I feel like there's, there's so much stuff going on.
Like, you don't have to go across the country to go play. Just, just go play local. I, and I do see, kids who don't have a lot of money, but the, the people are able to find teams for them, find, find [00:44:00] pathways of playing and, and, and, and making, making it happen for the most part. So I don't hear of many kids.
We recruit that didn't, weren't able to play au or weren't able to. 'cause like the reality is if if you're good enough, someone's gonna pay for you. If you're a really good young kid and you're, you're in, you're in New York City and you don't have the means to go play. But if you're really good, they'll, they'll find you, they'll, they'll, they'll pay for your, your, all the travel and all the uniforms and shoes and things like that.
So I think the access has helped. Almost everybody have a chance. And like Matt made a great point. If you're good enough, they'll find you. I tell it to parents all the time, you don't need to go out and spend money on a recruiting service or on a travel, all that kind of stuff. If you're good enough, there's, there's too much, too many eyes on you.
We'll find, we'll find you.
Jason Jacobs: One of the things I've been thinking, oh, well actually before I go here, one, one last, uh, topic and then we can close it out, uh, with just some feedback on some of the stuff I've been thinking about. But but you mentioned, I think it was you, Matt, that mentioned that there's too many games and not enough development.
What are your ideas in terms [00:45:00] of how to flip that and maybe rightsize that to maximize long-term success?
Matt Kingsley: I actually, I, I think Tobin is the one who said that.
Tobin Anderson: I gonna blame, gonna, blame, gonna blame me. I, I do agree with that though. I, I definitely do agree with that. There's too many games on his development.
Jason Jacobs: if you said it, of course you agree with it.
Tobin Anderson: Yeah. Whether, whether he said it or I said, it doesn't really matter. We we're all on the same page. I, yeah. I don't, I don't know how you get that back.
Right. I mean, like, listen. At the end of the day, kids wanna play. I mean, just, they wanna play, right? They wanna play games. Like everybody loves games. Like no one wants to go and shoot 500 jumpers. Let's go, let's go play. So I think it's gonna be hard to get to get that back to where it was. But you see more kids who, who do spend more time with their development, I think it's kind of a personal choice.
How many guys want, do you wanna get in the gym? And, and, and I, you can't say that You can't, you can't say, well, hey, we're gonna have, have less opportunities. You're just gonna, each kid has to make their own choice on what they want to do. And if you wanna become a, if you wanna become a great shooter in basketball, you better be in the [00:46:00] gym shooting, um, 200, 300, 400 shots a day.
There's no, there's no other substitute for that at all. Right? So I'm sure the same thing between hockey and soccer. And you have to have certain skill levels. So, you know, you go play three games in a day. You might shoot a total of 20, 20 shots, unless you're playing with Matt who shot all the time.
You might take 35 shots, but you're not getting a lot of shots off, right? So to be a great shooter, you have to go shoot 500 shots a day. So that's kind of a personal choice in on how, how good you wanna be, but um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure we're, we're gonna be able to go backwards 'cause look, 'cause Matt makes a good point too.
Everybody's making money, man. People are making, they're making a lot of money. These tournaments are, are, at the end of the day, they're money makers. They're, they're, they're charging admission, they're charging for parents, they're charging for the teams, they're charged for college coaches. I mean, there's a lot of money being thrown around to get, make this happen.
And that's not going away.
Matt Kingsley: I, I do, I do think the, the United, you know, this was like 10, 15 years ago. The United States was getting exposed by the [00:47:00] European players for not, not having a high enough skill level, you know, being athletic and, and, and being able to run up and down the court, but like they were, they were more skilled.
And I, I kind of think it, there's a better balance between, even though tournaments are offered every weekend and, and there's always the draw to that. I think nowadays there's definitely a better balance to dev skill development and, working on the other things that aren't just playing tournaments.
'cause like I, you know, I was saying like, kids have their trainers, they have their strength and conditioning coaches, they have their skill trainers and and so kids, kids are in the gym working on their skill levels. And then of course there are the kids that love it and they're gonna get in the gym on their own.
And over time. You know, given certain physical attributes and, and, uh, and talent, they'll win out because they love the game and they're in the gym all the time and they don't need a trainer there to, to, uh, to necessarily motivate them.[00:48:00]
Jason Jacobs: All right. Well, last segment is, I just want some feedback on some of the stuff I'm thinking about, which dovetails nicely into all the things we've just been talking about. And then, and then we can wrap. Um, is that cool? By the way, do we have time just
Tobin Anderson: Oh yeah, we're good.
Jason Jacobs: Okay. Uh, uh, I mean, a lot of similarities in hockey, right?
You see all the different. Coaches and trainers and strength and shooting and edge work and small group stuff and mental fitness and nutrition and what, and, you know, not you know, like my kid's, 13, he does a lot of stuff, but he doesn't do most of that stuff to, to be clear. But it's just like, there's a lot out there.
There's a lot coming at you, like Facebook ads and, and, and, and everything else, right? But still to play at the more competitive levels, like you end up doing some subset of that mix of things, right? And it might evolve as you get older. And one it's expensive. Two it's time consuming and requires, you know, the parents to have logistics that make them able to cart you around all the things that you need to do.
And then there's kids that don't, [00:49:00] either don't have the dollars, don't have the logistics, or live in regions where there's just not as much density. I mean, hockey relative to basketball, it's a lot smaller, right? Um, so, uh. So there's just like parts of the country, for example, where you don't have all the same resources that you have in a New England or a Minnesota or or places like that.
And at the same time over game, under-skilled and even as the skills come up right under Hockey iq, right? It's like, you know, 'cause you're not watching games, you're watching Instagram clips and stuff like that. So my thought is, and, and I'm using this for hockey, but it could just as much apply to basketball, is some type of digital platform that could be your partner through the journey that's centered on you.
That's not centered on the team. And that's, and that's not just, trying to fill a treadmill of like an hour of ice to work on this or an hour of ice to work on that. It's like, no, it's like your journey in a holistic way based on what's best for you. And by the way, best for you might be rest or might be doing other stuff, right?
But just kind of helping you navigate that, right? And that might be a [00:50:00] framework for what to work on that might be using things like computer vision for feedback. That might be things like film review and connecting you with people that, you know, coach the game at a really high level and do film review for d one of the pros, but now getting access for these kids coming up that don't have it at the dinner table, like Eli, right?
Um, or or also how to make it fun and a quick story from yesterday. So yesterday I am like, you know, I said to my kid like, Hey Tyler, like, um. You wanna go take some shots? He's like, well, I'll take some, but I'm tired. So how about we only shoot one bucket? So I said, okay, so we dump out the bucket and then, um, it's like, Hey, instead of just shooting, you wanna play a game.
And we played posts and we played horse. Right? Which is, similar to like horse and basketball, right. It's just different, different games that like made, make it a competition. We ended up shooting five buckets and then he was, he would've kept going, but I was the one that got tired and, and had to come in.
Why? Because we, it wasn't just out there like rote robotic going through the motion. We made it fun. So like, when his buddies are here, same thing. When he goes and you cart him in person with a group of kids, same thing. But when it's just [00:51:00] him and a bucket and the net, he doesn't wanna do it and he'll do it if I nudge him.
Right. But like, he doesn't wanna do it. It's not fun. He's just doing it because he wants to get better. Right. And so how do you make it fun at home? And could you essentially like. Somehow insert that competition or challenges or accountability or stuff in a, in a digital remote way. So anyways, I'll stop there.
Not a lot of specifics, but just that general category and general idea. I'm just curious your guys' initial reaction to that.
Tobin Anderson: Yeah, I li I like it. I think, I think, um, I think it depends on who's giving the feedback, right? Right. That's always the case. I mean, who's, who's in charge of the feedback? I mean, every, everybody wants to hear from people who are experts and who,
Jason Jacobs: unless the expert is your dad
Tobin Anderson: Yes. Yes. That's so, that's, that's a hard, yeah so who's giving the feedback?
But all that stuff, like, we have all this, listen, we have all that sh stuff here. We have all, you know, shooting how many shots the guy's taking, where they're taking 'em from, where, what their percentages, where they walking the gym, everything is charted, it's all that. And like, yeah, [00:52:00] I think a lot of that's really good.
Is, is it too much? Sometimes? Probably. Probably. So sometimes, like you said, just get, just getting in by yourself. And, and it's interesting 'cause like when I, when I was growing up, like, I loved to be in the gym by myself, almost like, to the point of somebody else came in, I'd be like, I, I don't want be able to stop.
I wanna work by myself. But I, I was a little bit different, right? So, um, and then as you got older, he wanted, he wanted to play one-on-one, wanna play two on two, whatever. So it, it, it just depends on who you are as a person, you know? I mean, I register Jason Williams who played with the Sacramento Kings. The white, they call white, white chocolate, or he was, he is Hall of Fame or close to Hall of Fame.
They said when he worked out in the pros, he wouldn't shoot, he wouldn't do any drills. He just wanted to play one-on-one. So like, to get him better, they'd have to figure out a way one-on-one to like get him to do certain things, work on certain skills. But he was like, I wanna have competition, I wanna play, I don't wanna do these.
He said, I don't wanna do these stupid ass drills. So he'd just come in and play one-on-ones. So like it's, it depends on, on who you are. But yeah, I think that like a lot of stuff's good, man. I think it's, it's, it's, it's, I think those ideas are great.
Matt Kingsley: [00:53:00] Yeah, I, I think it's a good idea too. I, I would say this though. You could give one coach the coolest, funnest drill, he administers it to his group and the kids don't like it and they're miserable. You give that same drill to another coach, he administers it to his group and it's awesome and they love it.
So to me, it's like, it's really our, our, who's doing it and are they good at what they do? You know, it's like your professor, some professors could teach, they teach the same material, but some are just awesome at it and they captivate you and some are just boring and it ain't fun. You know what I mean?
And so I think it's like in how, it's, how it's administered. You know, there, I imagine there, there's a person at, at some level of this platform, this digital platform, and how is it administered and is [00:54:00] administered, fun in a fun way.
Jason Jacobs: Well, here's one interesting thread, and I don't know if the same thing's true in the NBA. But, but it might be. But one of the things I've picked up just in the last few weeks is that I was talking to a long time NHL player who who left the game in the last few years. And and he is, you know, one of the reasons he left the game is that he's got two young kids and he doesn't want the travel grind.
He wants to be there with his kids. And they bought a place an hour up north from where they live. And he loves the game and he's seeking purpose, but he also is kind of like us. He's a little older. He wants to work on his own terms. He doesn't want anyone telling him what to do. He wants to be able to work from anywhere.
Right. And he's like, you know, if you gave me access to be able to help people digitally, right? They could benefit from like someone who's like, played in the league close to a thousand games, right? And I could benefit from purpose in serving people you know, serving more people more comprehensively than I could just [00:55:00] serving, you know, one kid at a time at the local rink and not to take away from the local rink, right?
But like, you get a different kind of leverage and scale when you work digitally. So that's a thread I wanna pull on is like, how do you, you know, how do you connect people that maybe recently left the game and are seeking purpose, but want more flexibility in their schedules with with kids in a way that makes sense for everybody?
What, what are you guys thinking and are you seeing similar in, uh, in basketball as well?
Matt Kingsley: I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is like Peloton.
Jason Jacobs: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've, I've used that analogy for sure when I think about it.
Tobin Anderson: I love Peloton, right?
Matt Kingsley: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So picture Peloton, but now you've got like an IMG sports psychologist and you've got like a, you know, like a world class off ice trainer and you've got a shooting coach and you've got you've got a film review guy who's done it in the pros and you've, you know, you have all these resources at your fingertips, but packaged in a way that's gonna be age appropriate for serious kids coming up and increase the accessibility so that you're also maximizing the time, you know, how you use the expensive ice time and getting a ton of stuff done in [00:56:00] between your home, which by the way, may even cut down on your cost and the wear and tear logistically, because you can get more quality stuff done on your own terms.
That, that's the, that's the thought, at least.
Tobin Anderson: no. I like it. It's hard, it's hard in hockey, right? 'cause you, you only get, you only get, um, get, gotta be on ice for the most
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I mean, we have a basketball hoop in our driveway, right? And that, I feel like that resembles basketball a lot more closely than the street hockey net that we have in our driveway.
Tobin Anderson: Are you able to skate? I mean, the skating's the most important part of being able to play hockey. Man, I can't, I can't freaking skate this. So you have to be able to do that first and foremost. So,
Matt Kingsley: i, I think, I think kids already, you know, they're already like learning most of what they learned from like, TikTok.
Like I was talking to a, a recruit who he learned how to study from a TikTok video that taught him how to like, make, make cahoots, make cahoots, on his phone for, for the material that he was studying.
I. I don't remember exactly, but I know my son, my [00:57:00] son learns half of what he learn what, what he knows. Like my son likes to cook and he learns all, all his recipes and all his cooking techniques. Off off TikTok,
Jason Jacobs: Hmm.
Tobin Anderson: Hmm.
Jason Jacobs: Matt, what's your TikTok page?
Matt Kingsley: I like, I'm a guest. I go in as a guest.
Tobin Anderson: I've done two, I think I've done three. Tiktoks.
Jason Jacobs: Well guys, I know I've, I've, I'm probably passed my quota here on, on time, but I, I, anything I didn't ask that, that you wish I, I did. Same, same question for either of you. And then the second question, and hopefully you can handle too at once here is just is just what advice do you have for any crazy sports parents out there that are tuning in, listening to the show, trying to figure out how to navigate the, you know, the journey with, uh, with their kids?
Tobin Anderson: I mean, I can say this, but Matt's actually, our kids are both the same age or whatever. Man. It's, it is like, and just enjoy it. Right? Like, it's like, I, I miss my son's cross country meets like crazy. Like, I loved, I loved gonna those meets. Like I'd be so, like, I'd be so nervous, [00:58:00] like almost felt like a game day for me.
And, um, to go watch his meets and be, I was so excited and like when he did well, I would be so happy and I would, I'd be stressed out and just like, I, I just, I love watching him run and he, to see him happy, to see him, to see your son or or daughter having fun, enjoying what they're doing, man, that's the whole, that's the whole thing, you know?
And I saw, I think for me, like, 'cause I coached him in au basketball when he was younger, sometimes after games, wanting to please me and like wanted make my approval and like cross country knowing him, knowing that I didn't really know what the hell I was talking about, but I just enjoyed watching him run.
Like, he could tell, he could tell. It was, it was sincere. So I, I, yeah, I think for any parent, like, man, like, you're gonna miss, I miss already the times taking, taking 'em to practice, picking 'em up, gonna the meets, like all that kinda stuff. Like, I, I miss that like, crazy. So just enjoy the time you have doing it, you know, and, and, and, and, and, uh, that's a special, special time in your life, and um, and I think anytime you see progress, it's like, you know, we're coaches so we see progress. I think most, one of the most valuable players of the coach is what you see. A player get [00:59:00] better or you see improvement. Right. And that's as your, when you're with your kid, like they may not be division one players, they may not be major college, they may not be superstars, but if you can just see them get better and improve, that's, that's what it's all about.
And like, and I think Matt made an unbelievable point too, like it's a vehicle for, I, I learned so much from basketball, from, from man, from the, from shit that didn't go well. You know, when, when it was like, man, this didn't, this was, I, you know, I went to prep school and I thought I was gonna go play division one and I was a FI was a 15th man on a 14 man roster.
Everybody else go division one. I was Alaska on the bench. That helped me so much when I got to college, being like, Hey, I can take any role or understanding the situation and help the rest of your life. You can just, you're just more resilient, more, you learn to handle all situations. And like Matt said, you gotta be able, I think you made another good point was like learning to play for coaches and, and people who aren't, um, maybe as good as you'd like them to be.
And being able to deal with those kind of situations. So, but I, I think, um, you gotta enjoy [01:00:00] it, man. It go, it goes by fast. My son's a sophomore. He's actually working the Alabama basketball camp right now. He's a coach. So people are, are, are paying money to go to the Alabama basketball camp and think they're gonna get coached by Nate Oats.
And it's my, my son's actually doing the coach. I'm like, that's, that's not a great, uh, but he's, but he is, he's down there doing that and it's, um, I'm really proud of him for, for that, that he's kind of going in that, in that direction. But it's like, yeah man, I miss, I miss the days of him just running cross country.
Matt Kingsley: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: Matt, any any, any advice parting
Matt Kingsley: Yeah. I mean, similar messages and, and it's somewhat contradictory, but bear with me. It is just like, don't be af don't be afraid of your kid, you know, having failure, because those are the biggest motivators, they're the biggest driving tools to, to get better and, if, if there's failure and, uh, they don't recover from it.
It, it wasn't meant to be. If, if there's failure and they pick themselves up and they, and then they start to work harder then you, you have something. But [01:01:00] always be positive with your kid, that's gonna instill confidence in them, that's gonna give them the right role modeling, you know, you, you try to model behavior for your kid.
Like, be positive with your kid and instill confidence in them. Tell them how good they were. If they didn't play, if they didn't play that great still when they come out of the game or, or you're in the car driving home. Just like tell them how good they were. And I just think that's gonna go a long way.
Even, even with our team coach Jones does such a good job of, in instilling our players with confidence that when we go out and play teams that are better than us, we, we think we're Superman out there. And that's one of the biggest things that I've learned is regardless of whether I think we're that good, we should be telling our, our guys that we're awesome and we are that good.
Because then it just instills confidence and they can go out there and, and, and play with confidence and, and just probably play [01:02:00] better than their level. So just be positive. Be positive with your kids. Tell 'em how good they played, regardless of how well they played.
Jason Jacobs: Guys, I, I can't thank you enough for making the time. It was really special to get to catch up with you. I learned a lot. And, uh, if and when we ever go into basketball with this digital platform expect some phone calls,
Tobin Anderson: That sounds good, brother.
Awesome. Great stuff, man. That was awesome. That was great. Great stuff.