In this episode of 'The Next Next,' host Jason Jacobs delves into athlete development with guest Cason Hohmann. Hohmann, a former professional hockey player and now an agent and development coach, shares his journey from starting late in hockey to his professional career and current endeavors. They discuss the influence of family in sports, player development strategies, and the critical role of video analysis in enhancing player performance. Jacobs and Hohmann also explore the balance between pushing young athletes and allowing them to enjoy the game, and the importance of having the right advisory support for aspiring hockey players. Hohmann emphasizes a personalized approach to development and the necessity of sacrificing short-term gains for long-term growth.
In this episode of The Next Next, host Jason Jacobs dives into the intricacies of athlete development with Cason Hohmann, a former professional hockey player turned agent. The discussion explores Cason's journey in hockey, from a late start in roller hockey to captaining the Boston University hockey team. The episode delves into the role of parents, the balance between pushing for excellence and avoiding burnout, and how technology and video analysis are transforming player development. Cason shares insights on the evolution of advisory roles in player development and his vision for making elite player development more accessible.
00:00 Introduction to The Next Next
00:31 Guest Introduction: Cason Hohmann
01:15 Cason's Early Hockey Journey
03:41 Parental Influence and Player Development
10:22 High School and Junior Hockey Experience
22:00 The Importance of Individual Development
28:26 The Role of Video Analysis in Hockey
38:08 Natural Hockey IQ: Innate or Taught?
40:29 The Importance of Skating in Youth Hockey
41:22 Understanding the Game: A Math Test Analogy
45:24 The Role of Advisors in Hockey Development
45:55 Balancing Accessibility and Cost in Hockey
47:34 Parental Involvement in Player Development
50:13 The Evolution and Importance of Hockey Advisors
59:10 Future Goals and Professional Aspirations
01:15:26 Closing Thoughts and Future Collaboration
[00:00:00]
Jason Jacobs: Welcome to The Next Next. I'm the host, Jason Jacobs. This shows sort through the nuances of athlete development through the lenses of a dad that's trying to sort through those nuances myself with my own kids. But also as an entrepreneur who's building my next company in this category, a player development platform that's leveraging technology to automate a big chunk of what's happening under the hood, to make high-end player development more accessible to players and to families, to grow those players and grow the sport.
Today's guest is Cason Hohmann. Cason was born in Texas and played four years of college hockey at Boston University, culminating in one of the captains his senior year. And they were the runner up in the national championship lost by one goal to Providence. And then he played for several years professionally.
In the US and internationally in Slovakia, Switzerland, and Germany. Today, he's an agent. He opened his own shop, Commonwealth [00:01:00] Hockey Group, and they're not just about representation. They're also focused on player development as well. Working closely with their players, using video, getting 'em on the ice and helping them improve their game, not just foster relationships and find fits with teams and coaches.
We have a great discussion in this episode about Cason's journey in the sport, how he first discovered the sport, his late start, how he started on roller blades, then grew into hockey. We talked about how he was an elite player growing up and what that means and how to know if you're elite. Are not elite and how that's measured.
We talked about how much of Cason's discipline and work ethic came from him versus from his parents and what his recommendations are for parents' roles in the journeys of, of rising competitive hockey players. And we also talk about player development in general. What works, what doesn't work, what Cason's approaches with Commonwealth Hockey Group, how technology is helping and where the sport is going directionally.
Cason Hohmann, welcome to the show.[00:02:00]
Cason Hohmann: Ah, thanks. Good. Good to be here.
Jason Jacobs: Good to have you. And I figured I'd wait just until you get back from an international trip and you're nice and jet lagged so that you'd be weak and vulnerable.
Cason Hohmann: Perfect.
Jason Jacobs: Well, I really appreciate you coming on. You know, I, I met you 'cause you're running a camp that my son's participating
in. But you happen to have been one of the captains at bu, which is our favorite college. We're season ticket holders. We go to as many games as we can. You can walk there from our house, which is another perk.
Both my parents went to bu and you were you were one of the captains in the year, you know, your senior year when the team almost had it right.
National championship game lost by one heartbreaker. And, and then you played a bunch of years of pro and now you're standing up your own shop that looks like it's kind of part agent and then you've. You know, you're doing some player development and you're assistant coach at BB and n all things that are super relevant to the stuff that I'm thinking about as a dad and as an entrepreneur. And I'm really grateful for you to make the time to come on and [00:03:00] educate me and educate listeners as well.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I'm I'm really excited. I'm, I'm pumped up. I think I have a lot of knowledge to share here. You know, based off what you've been talking to me about beforehand, and I'm excited.
Jason Jacobs: And actually, I forgot to add, you know, the statute said you're five nine. I don't even know if that's inflated, which you know, which, which also you know, gives me hope because like, I'm five eight and I'm the tallest one in my family. So, so it's nice to see, you know, that the you know that, that the smaller guys, if they have enough hurricane, go pretty far in the game.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm five nine on a good day, so, it will give me a couple extra inch. So, but yeah, it's a different game nowadays and I think smaller guys they, they know how to play the right way. They can definitely do some damage.
Jason Jacobs: Now my first question for you is that you, I mean, started late. Sounds funny when you, you know, when you, when you started at seven. But but for hockey that's late and you didn't even start on skates. You started on, on rollerblades. So how did you first come across the game of hockey? Did, did your parents play?
Did anyone in your family play? [00:04:00] It certainly wasn't big in Texas. So how did hockey first come on your radar?
Cason Hohmann: That's a great question. So I'm, I'm originally from Dallas, Texas. I grew up, I played all the sports soccer, t-ball football, typical Texas sports. And then I was playing roller hockey a bunch. We had a rink next to our, our house down in Texas. And I loved it. You know, was really good at it first, and then I, you know, one day we decided, hey, we're playing roller hockey.
Might as well switch over to ice hockey. The style, the stars won a Stanley Cup in 1999, so they just won when I was seven years old. So it was, it was perfect. So we got out there on the ice hockey rink and I was terrible. Absolutely terrible. Everything else came so easy to me. And I think, you know, understanding how to, you know, work and get hard, like, you know, put the effort in to get good outta sport really made me, you know, love the game of hockey really in a really short time.
It also helped that, you know, like I said, the stars won the cup in 1999 and we had this influx of great hockey players that wanted to to play hockey [00:05:00] at that time. And we ended up actually, you know, my 12 and under year, we ended up actually winning a, a national championship tier one for Peewees.
So it was, it was fun. We'd go up and play all the Michigan teams and all the teams are so good around the country, the Chicago teams, and they would think they were just gonna get a, you know, nice little train stomp on us. And it happened more times than not to be the other way around. So, it was really fun doing that and, you know, bring in the game of hockey to Texas and kind of paving the way for all the young players now.
Jason Jacobs: Now just a, a couple logistical questions. Were, you know, did, did anyone you know, like your, your parents or anybody play competitive sports and also just as a sibling? I think I read. You're the oldest sibling. So I mean, was there any other hockey or kind of sports nuts in your family? Because you, you don't go and be, you know, kind of captain of a team that goes to the division one national championships unless you're a serious athlete.
And so that's one of the things I'm looking at on the show is just like, where does that come from?
Cason Hohmann: My [00:06:00] dad, no one in my ho family played hockey ever. They had no idea. My dad was a pitcher and a tied end at Texas State. University never touched skates before. My mom was a soccer player growing up, but no one really played hockey at all. My grandpa in a small town in Texas loved to do like, you know, skates, rollerblading, skates.
So he had some sort of. Skating ability. But other than that, it was absolutely nothing straight from scratch. Nobody had any idea about hockey at all, but you know, just made, made it, made it through.
Jason Jacobs: And what was the philosophy about sports in your household? Where did, I mean, was it, was it just play for fun? Was it, you know, you steer the ship from the youngest age in whatever you want, sunny or was there pressure? Like what, what did you, what, what, what environment did you grow up in in that regard?
Cason Hohmann: It was definitely not just play for fun at all. My dad which I do appreciate, was very intense. I think he knew [00:07:00] he had something with me. And he really wanted to get the most out of me. So it was it was a lot of, you know, extracurricular video watching the game. I mean, he, God, for God forbid, he didn't know much about hockey, but he, he learned and we, we watched it together and I think he was very tough on me, but I think that pushed me to get to where I am now.
He did it in a really good way and you know, I was really thankful that he did that because as a kid from Texas, a smaller player, if you don't have that drive and that extra effort I don't think you're getting to where I got. Right. So I appreciate that. I know a lot of kids nowadays don't have that same philosophy that my dad had, and the parents don't have the same philosophy.
But I think for me at that time, it was exactly what I needed to kind of push me through to where I needed to be.
Jason Jacobs: Well, I mean, you, you hear the talking heads on the podcast talk about like, the kid sits near the ship and listen to your kid. Right. [00:08:00] And I mean, on the one hand it's like, I get it. It's such a long road that if the kid doesn't love it, then they don't stand a chance. And so like, what's the point of the parent trying to force it?
But, but on the other hand, like, look what it takes. Right? And like, and by the time the kid has enough agency like maturity to understand what it takes, then it's too late.
Right. And yeah. And so I guess with the benefit of hindsight, how do you reflect on that experience and, and, and how might you do it?
Because you, you have what? One you have one kid today.
Cason Hohmann: I am, my wife's pregnant, so I do not have a, a child yet, but she's, she's on the way soon.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. and, and, and, and when is she due?
Cason Hohmann: OC October. October 16th. So we're coming
Jason Jacobs: Got it. So not yet, but you're, it's at least kind of on the horizon of thinking about it. So as you head out on that journey, like what what, what's in your mind? And, and the caveat is that when, I mean, I'm a crazy hockey dad now, and when my wife was pregnant for the first time, like that was the furthest thing from the radar.
Like sports, you know, sports was recessive in me, but didn't [00:09:00] rear its head again, until actually my kids were, were quite a bit older. So, but, but that's another story.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I mean, I think as an agent now and working with kids every single day, especially the high school you know, middle school age group, I think it's, it's a weird situation, a sense of where every, every kid's different. You know, some kids have that drive and they want to be pushed. Other kids, if you push 'em, they, they kind of break down and they don't know how to respond to criticism.
So you gotta kind of go. Whichever way is gonna be the best for the kid and you gotta be able to read and react in the situation. But in my situation too, when I was growing up, like I said, my dad really pushed me hard. I could take the criticism, I understood that, you know, you gotta push more to be better.
But I had a lot of coaches that understood what it took to get to where they need, where we needed to go, right? So they were in my corner supporting me, making sure I was following the right path down. The whole entire process. Hockey is a long, long process. There's a lot of little things that go into it.
So I think, you [00:10:00] know, having, you know, most parents today don't realize how much help actually goes into making a D one or elite hockey player. You gotta have guys that know what they're doing in your corner to be there to support you along the way. And every step of the way, there's gonna be bumps. It's not gonna be a flat road.
And to be able to navigate those bumps and understanding what's best for every single option is, is a really important thing.
Jason Jacobs: Now did you, did you play, it looked like you went club, like I looked on elite prospects. I saw club and then I saw juniors, but I didn't see is high school. So, like what, where did you grow up playing and, and was it one of these clubs that travels all the time where you'd get homeschooled or
like how, how did that work?
Cason Hohmann: so like I said, I had my Texas team and I was 12. We were the best team in the country. You won. Then I ended up moving up to Michigan. Played for Detroit Compuware, which was also another club team. And we also, once again, we won nationals for that team as well. And then I played two years of USHL juniors in Iowa.
So I billeted my junior and senior year of high school. Lived with a [00:11:00] family out there in Iowa. And then I was a true freshman at bu. So. My, I was a 18-year-old kid playing against 20, 22-year-old Providence guys as a five foot nine, 170 pound player. So, it was a big culture shock, but it was, it was good.
Jason Jacobs: And so what'd you do for schooling growing up?
Cason Hohmann: I went to, in Texas, my freshman year of high school, I just went to a, you know, a, a public school in Texas, a big football school that had a ton of kids. And then same thing in Michigan. My, my junior year I moved up to Michigan to play for that comper team. Sophomore year I went to another public school, and then junior, senior year, the, the, the, the junior teams usually have a school that they put all their, their players in.
So I went to another public school again in, in in Iowa. So I think Massachusetts everywhere besides Mass in Minnesota really. Has travel teams and they get away from the high school, the high [00:12:00] school point of view. But here in mass it's prep school or elite high school, and same thing in Minnesota.
They have elite high school programs out there that kids go through up until they want to go to junior hockey. I,
Jason Jacobs: So, when you were growing up, was it w when you thought about. Career Professional aspirations. I mean, was it, was it hockey? Hockey, hockey from the early stage.
Cason Hohmann: yeah. Ever since, you know, when I was seven, eight years old, I, you know, I was good at the other sports, but it wasn't the same. I was, I was a lead, I was an elite hockey player. The only other sport that I played was roller hockey. And I played roller hockey religiously. I almost played roller hockey more than I played ice hockey.
And I think, you know, I think roller hockey is something that a lot of, a lot of kids don't, you know, don't play up here. I think it's, it's really, really important for development. Because it's four on four, no offsides, no icing, completely skill-based. And it's a lot of possession, a lot of slowing the game down.[00:13:00]
And I think a lot of kids at this age are chipping pucks off the wall, throwing it up for no reason, turning it over, giving up, giving up possession. I think playing roller hockey at that such frequency when I was younger has really, you know, gotten to me where I am now, where it's, I'm a very, I'm a believer in holding onto the puck, possessing the puck, don't give the puck away type of guy.
And I think even at the highest levels, or even at prep school level or any of these levels in mass, it's a lot of giving the puck away for no reason. I think, you know, playing roller hockey and, and stuff like that is really helpful, but it was as you, as you, Jason, it was all, it was all hockey all the time.
During the summer I kind of just took a step back and got off the ice a little bit and focused on roller, but other than that, I wasn't playing any other sports besides hockey.
Jason Jacobs: Well, there, there's a bunch of threads to pull on there. So, so one thread we could pull on is the thread about like, how can you call your kid elite before they've even gone through puberty yet, because you don't know what you've got because everything changes. So [00:14:00] that's kind of one thread.
Another thread is don't specialize too early because they're gonna burn out and grow to hate the game. And you gotta keep 'em fresh, take 'em off the ice, even if they wanna stay on the ice, take 'em off the ice. So that's another thread we can pull on. Right.
And, and then a third thread is you know, everyone ends up in beer league eventually, so academics, academics.
Academics. Right? That's kind of a, a third thread and looks at you now at one of the most academically minded schools in the country, right.
And PB and n, right? And so, I guess react, you know, I'd love to hear your reflections on each of those threads just given where you sit now and what you've learned along the way through your path.
Cason Hohmann: yeah. Perfect. Can you explain, can you ask me about thread one again? Just so we can go through,
Jason Jacobs: Oh gosh. Now that now you're turning the tables. Now I have to remember what thread one was. So I, I, I should have written 'em down as I was talking.
So, so, so, so thread one is about don't call your kid elite, you know, before puberty checking, you know, girls booze, like distractions. Like you don't know what you've got, right?
So, so that's thread one.
Cason Hohmann: yeah. Perfect. I guess in my situation it was a little bit different because I was, I was [00:15:00] elite and I was a nationwide elite. Like I was a really good player growing up as a youth player, but I guess in other kids' shoes, it, it, it just depends, right? It's, it's situational. Okay. If, if a, if a kid really, really is elite, then I think all the hockey stuff early is very important for him.
Making sure he stays ahead, making sure he gets to where he wants to go, all that stuff. But at the same time, you're also gonna have kids who, like you said, are want to, you drive him too hard, they're gonna burn out, and they're not gonna wanna do this all the time. So I think it's crucial to find a, a fine line of, like I said, for me it was once the summer was over, I wasn't playing ice hockey anymore.
It was just like, that was something that I didn't, I want, I was doing all year round and you know, I was who I was and I was just gonna go play roller hockey, maybe a couple tournaments here and year in the summer and the fall. But other than that it was, I'm, I'm playing, I'm playing roller hockey and that's just how it's gonna be.
But I think a lot of kids [00:16:00] nowadays, to answer your question, it's just like they're going to every single tournament all the time nonstop. When they're not going to tournaments, they're doing skills and it's just 24 7 hockey all the time, which is fantastic in a sense of like, if you want to play and you really want to get out there all the time.
But the problem with that is, is like you said, you're gonna burn out. Okay. And are you actually working on the right stuff that's gonna get you there? 'cause it doesn't really matter how good you are when you're 13 or 14 years old. Because at the end of the day, you gotta, you, you're gonna have to go to school when you're 18, 19 years old.
And if you're not good enough at that age, then it doesn't matter. So to be quite honest, who cares if you're good at 14 or 13? It doesn't matter at all. Right? So what I think a lot of kids are, the problem with these, a lot of kids now is they're not really focusing on the development side of the game.
They're working, they're focusing more on, Hey, how, how many times can I get my kid in front of guys? How many, how many times can I get my kids on this team and go play this tournament, go play this tournament, go play this tournament? [00:17:00] Okay, well if your kid's playing 18 million tournaments and he's tired all the time, you're gonna go put him in front of people that are watching him.
He's not gonna play good every single tournament. So you're gonna actually, not only, you're gonna give him some bad publicity a little bit too when you're doing all this stuff. So unless he's one of the elite of the elite players I think it's good to. Take some time off, pick and choose your tournaments and really, really focus on the development side of hockey.
'cause there's a lot of things that you can learn at a young age that a lot of people don't understand. They don't teach. So I think doing that is the most important thing for these kids.
Jason Jacobs: S so, but I, I, I wanna, I wanna frame this up
because if I'm a parent that didn't play.
And little Johnny goes out and like, you know, in the half ice game with the mini nets
and scores. Eight goals. Right. My kid's national Elite.
Right. And so like what, how would you define National Elite? Just so, so the parents out there might be able to level, [00:18:00] set and calibrate.
Cason Hohmann: I guess
Jason Jacobs: Like were you playing two, two birth years up and
dominating with the, you know, with the, with the kids two years older or like, what, what does that, like, what, how did you know.
Cason Hohmann: I guess for me, my personal thing was I was playing two years up and I was putting up four or five points a game, which, which is fine, which is fine, but for, for kids it's just, you can tell like if we're going out and doing a skate and they're going three on three and they're just going around everyone and dominating, you can tell.
Okay. And if they're in the middle of the pack and they're, and they're, you know, grinding and like everybody else, which 99% of the kids are, then yeah, you need to work on your development and get to where they need to be. Okay. But, and then you get 'em in games. They're not gonna play three on three mini nets forever.
I mean, that's something that I would love personally to go out and do with every single of these kids. Two or three times a week. Like that's stuff, that's the most important stuff. The decision making, the one, the mini battles, the understanding the two on ones, the how to get the two on ones, how to get the space, all these little [00:19:00] type of stuff that is a lot of high level stuff for non hockey parents.
But but once you get in the game and you can see the, the, the eliteness I think for me is where you can tell, I mean, if your kid's going out there and putting up four or five points a game, then it's okay. Then he's an elite player and I think that's where you can define, define it.
Jason Jacobs: So the second thing was around burnout. And even if your kid wants to stay on the ice here, around. Take him or her off the ice, like force him to play other sports. You know, force him to go be a kid and, you know, have fun and eat ice cream and be on a kayak on the lake. You know, don't you know, other, otherwise, you know, it's a marathon and they're, they're not gonna make it through.
What about that one?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I, I agree. My, my philosophy on this is I, I, I want kids to do other stuff besides just hockey. I mean, you're gonna get burnt out. Trust me, I've, I've been through it all and hockey gets really tiring at times, especially if you're always working on it. But at the same time, it's, it's a sport that, you know, if, if you're [00:20:00] wanting to play hockey and as a parent or as a player and you know, you have the ability, you know, the high end ability to possibly get there, well, we gotta skate and we gotta stay on our, on the ice and we gotta keep working on it.
Okay? But that's not going to every tournament in the world. That's. Maybe once or twice a week. We're doing skills, we're doing development, we're making sure we're focusing on how to get better on the ice. 'cause you think about it, these tournaments or these false tournaments that you go to, I know you, you coach your kid, how long, how long does he have the puck on his stick per game, per tournament.
Right? It's like
he's probably
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. And I don't
coach, I mean, I I coach as a dad
who's involved. I
don't, I'm not actually on the bench
Cason Hohmann: you just gotta think about some of these metrics. It's like I can get, I can get kids out there that can, I can get more touches in two or three drills and my skill sessions and some of these kids are gonna get in one or two games throughout a whole entire tournament.
Right. So I, I just, [00:21:00] I think it's, I think it's a little bit of a burnout and I think parents should, you know, get away from putting their kid into every single tournament. 'cause like we already discussed. You know, I don't, who cares if your kid's awesome at 13, 14 years old? Like you, you just gotta keep him, him or her getting better throughout the whole entire process and not, and not worrying about it.
Development aspect is the most important thing to me. Instead of instead of that. So yeah, I would encourage kids to play other sports, be a kid, have fun. But at the same time, there's also kids that are, can take that. Like I said, there's some kids that are very regiment based and you can tell right from the start that they all, all they wanna do is play hockey and they're com I, there's those kids I've met 'em, they're completely different mindset.
They're just like, I wanna do hockey all the time. Okay, stop. No, I wanna do this. I wanna shoot pucks. Well, with those kids, I think you can press a little bit harder, but try to get 'em to become a kid a little bit. But other kids and everybody else just have a little bit of, a little bit of different mindset with 'em.[00:22:00]
Jason Jacobs: So, I mean, given, given how much you were pushed and how much extra you did outside of the, the formal stuff, how much of what was special about you was born versus molded from Clay?
Cason Hohmann: that's a good question. I, I, I just think the game a little bit differently. I think my game is all, you know, it's obviously physical and, but my game's more mental. I think, like I'd mentioned before, I think the roller hockey really, really, really helped. I, I, I think, like I said, I played roller hockey and I was molded, I was molded with the roller hockey mindset than more of, I was the ice hockey mindset.
So it's like I had good coaches. We played national roller hockey tournaments, you know, I did all that stuff and it was just, I think that was what molded me into the player I needed to be. So there wasn't, there wasn't, there was no dumping the puck or, or you know, I'm getting up to the red, I'm getting up to the red line, I'm seeing the red line, and there's two guys on me.
Well. I'm just gonna cut back, back into my own end and get speed and space [00:23:00] and go do, try it again. I mean, they can't cut me off forever. Right. So it's just having, having that mindset. I think my dad was really good about that too. He, he encouraged the cre creativity, he encouraged the, making sure we're going back and getting space.
And he was a little bit of a different thinker and so were the coaches I had growing up. So it was just, it's, it's tough when you're, you know, you're molded into a, Hey, you gotta dump the puck in. Hey, you need to chip it, you need to chip it off the glass. It's, you know, we, we gotta get away from that. We gotta get back to the creativity and understanding how to mold these kids like they're 13, 14 years old.
You know, we gotta, we gotta make sure the development's on, on pace here.
Jason Jacobs: And the last one of, of that thread was just around how everyone ends up in Beer league eventually.
And so play the long game with development and, you know, academics first.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, everyone does end up in Bear League eventually. I mean, I'm in Bear League right now, so, so it, it, [00:24:00] it's true, bro. So it's, it's like, the thing though is, is education is the most important in my opinion as well. So these prep school, this education's awesome here up in Massachusetts.
The prep school method is awesome. It's great, it's fantastic. Okay? But now kids have to play two years of juniors, right? Or one or two years of juniors before they go play D 1D three hockey. So it's not the same as it used to be, where you could just go straight from prep right to, you know, a BU or BC or any of these Boston schools up here.
You have to go play juniors. 'cause juniors is where they're gonna get the actual, Hey, are you good or not? Type of look right? So I think there's a fine line. It's like, Hey, I want 'em to go play prep school. But the problem is, if you're really, really good, are you actually gonna finish out your degree at prep school?
No, you're not. You're gonna go play juniors and you're gonna be like me and you're gonna go to a public school in Iowa. Right? So it's just how do you, how do you weigh that against not doing it? And [00:25:00] that's where someone like me comes in as an advisor, as an agent that can help you get you through that.
But at the end of the day too, is going to play in that public. What's the end goal of prep school? The end goal of prep school is to go to a, you know, a Ivy League school or a BU or a bc Okay, well if you go to juniors in Iowa, that's your best shot. Getting to that, to that BU BC too. So it's like you kind of got away both in a sense of, in a sense of what's gonna get me there the best.
Also, scholarships. I mean, tuition now nowadays at at those schools are like $90,000. So you also gotta have that in the back of your mind as well.
Jason Jacobs: So back to your path.
So, so you were, you were coming up playing club and then, you know, and obviously some very good club teams, national championships
and the like, and then you switched to juniors before you got to college. So how did you end up at bu? What did that process look like?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah. So my sophomore year at, in Michigan, we won, he won nationals. And right after that tournament, I, [00:26:00] I I visited a bunch of schools and I had my pick of the litter and ended up committing to bu before I even went out to juniors in Iowa. So, yeah, it
Jason Jacobs: When you were a so sophomore in high school.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, yeah, so it was, it was great.
So, I mean, it's not really how, I mean, if you're like, I don't wanna sound too braggy, but you, if you're really, really elite, that that's, that's a possibility. Right. So it's like, but nowadays that's just hard to do. It's like you have to. Go through and you gotta play juniors, and then you gotta, you gotta make sure everyone's seeing you and you're doing that type of route.
But yeah, so I went, I did that and then I played two years in, in Cedar Rapids. Yeah. And then I ended up at BU as a true freshman. So it was great. I
Jason Jacobs: do, do I guess how, given how much training you were doing and given the moving around and stuff, did you, do you feel like you had a typical high school experience? And looking back on it, if you didn't do, do you wish at all that you did?
Cason Hohmann: I definitely [00:27:00] did not have a typical high school experience, so it was, I went to, like I said, three different high schools, three different high schools in my four years. Looking back on it, I, I loved it. It was great because I got to meet so many amazing people. I have friends from Texas. I have friends from Michigan in high school.
I got friends from Iowa that live there. So I got triple, triple the dose of, of high school, which was great. So I mean, Texas, I was the hockey player. No one really, again, no one cared at all. But when I was up in Michigan and a lot of guys knew I was a, a good hockey player and then, especially when I was in, in Iowa, so everyone knew I played for the Cedar Rapids rough riders there in Iowa.
And it was a, it was a fun high school experience 'cause everyone knew that you were a pretty decent hockey player coming through there. And it was, it was, it was fun. I really, really enjoyed it. I know a lot of kids are hesitant about leaving their home and going to live with a family they have no idea about.
And I think just for me, I played a bunch of years in Europe as well down the line. I think going [00:28:00] into new places and experiencing new things. It became easy to me because it was just another chance to meet new, awesome, great people and have more for more friends throughout the world. Right? So nowadays it's like I know so many people all across the world through all my experiences, and it's, it's so fun to have all these neat, neat, cool relationships.
Jason Jacobs: It. It's like a hockey brat instead of an
army brat.
Cason Hohmann: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Jason Jacobs: And I've heard some other people talk about how they didn't have access to real player development, you know, video analysis and strength training and nutrition and mental performance and all that until they got to college or in some cases even past college. Whereas now it seems like that, I mean, for a price, it's being made accessible earlier and earlier.
What kind of resources did you have and what was the development focus for you growing up, and how did that contrast or compare to once you got to bu?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah. This is actually a great question. It's kind of the, the topic [00:29:00] I wanted to discuss as well, coming on here. I had nothing I didn't, you know, I watched video with my dad. He would put out a camcorder and he would watch video of myself and I would look at there and I would, as a kid who knew nothing very talented, but didn't have the knowledge I know now and then.
As you, as you get older. I mean, this is my thought process on it. Okay? Even when I was that age, it's, you're not really focusing on development. It's like, you know, when I was in Michigan, it's, Hey, are you good enough to play on this team or not? And the answer is no. Well, they're just gonna take someone else.
Hey, when you're a juniors in Iowa, you know, there's hundreds of kids come to this camp. Are you good enough to play on the team or not? And no, they'll find someone else. There's no same thing at bu there's no development that's going on at these places that everyone says there is, there's nothing. So, especially when I was growing up, it's what are the practices look like?
The practices are Ford, check back, check systems, power, play penalty, [00:30:00] kill, faceoffs neutral zone, Ford check, you know, trap. Like, it's, it's nothing to do with, Hey, Cason, you need to go to these spots on the ice to be successful. Hey, you had the puck on your stick for 30 seconds. This game you make, we need to figure it out.
A, we put a reason to get it up to 40 or 45 seconds for next game. You need three more shots. Okay, well how are you, how are you doing? How are you gonna get three more shots a game? That was nothing. There was nothing like that at all. Especially, you know, even at bu they had video video guy. But that was, that was, that just wasn't a thing back then.
And, and to be honest, I know we're gonna harp on this probably in a little bit. It, it still isn't, it's still not, it's still not a thing. So, but yeah,
Jason Jacobs: And are, are you talking about at the with clubs coming up? Are you talking about in juniors? Are you talking about in college? Are you talking about all of the above?
Cason Hohmann: I'm talking about everything. It's the same thing everywhere, especially in youth hockey. I mean, obviously there's, there's not that stuff, but at junior hockey, they have, they have the ability to have that [00:31:00] stuff. And then especially in the college level, they have the ability to have that stuff as well. So, but yeah, it's just, it's all team oriented stuff, which is great.
Which is, you know, at BU or at another division one school, it's built around the team, which is how it should be. Okay. But if your goal is to go play a pro hockey or go to where you want to go as an individual, you need a little bit of individual coaching as well. Because if the video consists of you going in there and the coach who's running the whole team goes, Hey, I want you to do this, this, this, and, and dump the puck in.
I want you to do this, this, this for the team and dump the puck in. Okay, well if you go down that route, how are you gonna go play pro hockey? You're dumping the puck in every time 'cause the coach wants you to. Right. So there's a lot of, a lot of little nuances that go into this stuff as well.
Jason Jacobs: So we've talked about how tournament tournament tournament isn't productive. We we've talked about how the teams are incented to [00:32:00] win and everyone's expendable and they'll just put the best kids on the ice, but then the kids and families are left to figure it out, development on their own.
And your point, what I'm hearing is that there needs to be resources that are centered around. Individual development what resources sh exist and what resources should exist?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I guess that's a good question. So what I do now, so what I, my, my job after I stopped playing three or four years ago is I'm a, I'm a hockey agent. That's my main job. So I'm a hockey agent, but also a development coach and a video coach. So I, I take on players, and then what they get with me is the agent.
Part of it that all the agents do is they put 'em on a team. Make sure they're in the right spots. In the right positions. And then I also watch video with my kid once a week. And if he's in the Massachusetts area, I have skates that you know of that they come out and skate with me and they [00:33:00] get better.
And they're working on the stuff in the skates that they were working on in the video. So it's all inclusive. So a lot of these guys now just do the agency part. They sign kids up, they talk to 'em two or three times a year. Okay, we're gonna got, we got you on bb n you're gonna go to bb n next year. I got you on bb NN.
Okay, awesome. Okay, that's great. But now you gotta have something that's making sure they're developing as well. So that's what I do. I watch, I watch video of my kids weekly and making sure they're, they're getting to where they wanna go to. And this is, in my humble opinion, this video is the most important thing.
You can do. Is it, is it good to go out and do skills and skates and, and shoot pucks and do all these awesome things? Yes, it's great. It's awesome. Every kid needs to do that. Okay. But like we just talked about, you only have your puck on your stick for 30 seconds A game, you know, you have zero shots on net.
Well that's not really gonna help your, your shot because it's not really gonna help you work on your shot. It's not really gonna help you get any more goals. 'cause you're putting up zero shots a game, you [00:34:00] know what I mean? So we gotta figure out how to get to the right areas. What areas make me the most successful?
What's the percentage of going to these areas? How does that work? How do we get back on defense, turn around on offense? Where do guys go on the other team? How do we get our two on ones? All these things that you don't even think of that are actually imperative to, to, to making sure kids understand how to play.
It's even at the NHL level. I also watch video of the NHL guys as well. So it's like I ask questions like, Hey, do you have a plan for going in the offensive zone? Do you understand? You know. What you need to do when you get there. And even at the NHL level, these guys are like, you know, I just wanna get to the net.
Okay. How, how do you get to the net? Where do you need to go in the offensive zone to get to the net? And they don't know. 'cause they've always been the best player at their level the whole entire life. So, but it's funny because those guys don't know. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a problem that's kind of occurring in the hockey for, in the hockey world with, with no, no development and no understanding of how to [00:35:00] become the best player you need to be.
Jason Jacobs: So if you are a player coming up that is not the best player your whole entire life
and is not the best player on every team and doesn't have the most skills out of anyone who's on the ice is it crawl, walk, run, like you need to start with the individual skills before you get to the video. Is there a certain like baseline of scalability relative to your peers that you need to have before video becomes like the highest leverage thing that, that you can do?
Or should everybody be doing it?
Cason Hohmann: I think everyone should be doing it, but at the same time, you, you gotta be able to get to where you gotta be able to get the puck on your stick and you gotta be able to make plays and gotta be able to have some sort of ability to play the game of hockey, right? Like you can't watch video of you just aren't good enough to, to get the puck and aren't good enough to have the speed and do that stuff.
So I think video's important for the kids that have, I would have the upper, you know, at least average ability to play hockey. So, I mean, if, if [00:36:00] you can't skate there's no point in watching video 'cause you're just never gonna get the puck. But at, at the same time, I think, like, to answer your question, I think every kid who is on a travel team or is in prep school or anything like that, should, should and wants to play hockey at the next level.
If they're not watching video at a high, high level, they're, they're behind all these other guys that are,
Jason Jacobs: When it comes to the skills side, are there some types of skills that are either ineffective at best or even detrimental to your development or or is more better? Across the board?
Cason Hohmann: I, I, I don't, I don't know if anything is detrimental to the development. 'cause every time you're out there, you're, you're getting puck touches and you're, you're getting better at the game of hockey. But I think for me, like I mentioned, the, the biggest problem I have with some of these skills is when guys just line.
[00:37:00] Line up pucks on the blue line and make you shoot, Hey, we're gonna work on your shot. We're gonna fix your shot. Okay, let's line up 10 pucks. Let's shoot it. Okay, great. Okay. We do, we do skating stuff. Okay. Skating's, awesome. Great. I, that's something that's really important at a younger age. Okay. But if you're not understanding where to go with the skating or you're not understanding how to utilize that shot that you've been working on, you're just wasting your time out there.
'cause there's no point. Like if, if you were to do the math of like, I watch a video with all my kids, at the end of periods they go, Hey, how long do you think you had the puck on your stick that period? And they're like, oh, like 30 seconds. I was like, I'm like, no, you had the puck on your stick for four seconds.
That period. Okay, so Congrat, congrats on shooting an hour worth of shots at your rink. You got zero that that period. So we gotta understand how to get the puck with space so you can utilize that shot. And once you understand that and you're doing it well, yeah, go work on your shop, but don't, well, you need [00:38:00] to work on the other stuff that's gonna make you more successful before you start lining up pucks and, and shooting pucks for, for absolutely no reason, in my opinion.
Jason Jacobs: Do you think that all players start from a baseline of just no hockey iq and then everything that they figure out is taught or or do some people have it and some people don't?
Cason Hohmann: That's a good question. I think it's a mixture of a mixture of both. 'cause I see kids who go out there and they just naturally understand the space. It's like, Hey, I, I need to get away from this guy. He's, he's coming at me like with, even without the puck. Like I see when I, when I see players who are actually actively working to get away with away from guys without the puck, then that gives me a lot of hope.
And I think that's something that's, that's really good to look at. Because if you get away from the guy without the puck, now when you get the puck, you're gonna have way more space. You don't need someone right in your face, especially as a, a five foot nine on a good day player. The biggest [00:39:00] thing for me is like, hey, if a six foot four kid is right in, my guy is right, right in my face when I get the puck, I'm, what am I even doing out there?
I'm in trouble. But if you give me another second, another half second on that kid, he, now it's his, he's back on his heels, he's in trouble. So I think, you know, there's kids that see that naturally and understand it and that what kind of makes them a little bit separates 'em a little bit just from their own ability.
But there's also kids that, you know, need to be taught that, and even the kids who do understand it need to be taught at a higher degree so they can become more successful. But some kids, like I said, it's, they don't have that thought in them at all, but they can be developed. I've seen it. And once they understand it, light bulb goes off and they're like, oh, okay.
Well that makes a lot of sense. And they start doing it. And once you learn that and start doing it, it's like they're completely different players all of a sudden. And it's, it's awesome to watch.
Jason Jacobs: As a family coming up. I mean, each of these things, whether it's skating or [00:40:00] shooting or small group or lessons or video analysis or
advisory or it all costs money, right? And if so, if there's only x pool of money for all development activities and you need to choose, I, I understand that age plays a role.
I, I understand that what level you play might play a role, but is it, is it kind of within that one size fits all in terms of what's appropriate? Or does it totally depend on the kid? And if it depends on the kid? As a parent, how do you know? Like how do you know what to focus on?
Cason Hohmann: I think for me as a younger kid, I would focus on skating. I would really focus on skating. I even Evan Rodriguez was my roommate in college. He played Florida Panthers last two seasons, one Stanley Cup twice. He did, he did figure skating when he grew up. So it's, it's, I think just becoming a good skater at a younger age is, is really important.
'cause like I said, there's no point in watching the video doing that stuff unless you're a good skater. Okay. So I would really focus on the skating aspect of it first. But once you do the skating aspect, [00:41:00] I would, I would work with guys like myself to make sure we're, we're doing the right stuff, we're getting the video, and we're understanding how to play the game of hockey at a really, really elite, elite level that no one really teaches.
Because I think that's, that's the most important thing that you can learn as a, as a hockey player coming up who wants to play, you know, hockey at the next level is understanding how to play the game the right way. I compare it to a math test, really, Jason. It's, you know, how do you pass a math test?
You, you, you study for it, right? You have to study, you have to understand, you know, the formulas for the problems. You gotta understand if something happened, if it's like, this is this and you gotta do this. You so guys. Which I think is like the most important answer to your question is guys just go out and they don't study the game of hockey at all.
Okay? You wanna play hockey at an elite level, you gotta understand what to do. You gotta understand what's on the test. You know, if a big guy comes at you and he's trying to gap up on you, wants the answer to the problem, you gotta know the answer to the problem. Okay? If, if a [00:42:00] guy cuts you off and you need to make a certain play, okay, what are your two or three answers to the problem?
They're gonna make you successful. Okay? But right now they don't even know 'cause they don't study. And I think that's the biggest problem in hockey, even at this age, the junior age, the college age, and even I just discussed in HL age, is they don't have an answer to the question. So I, I think that's something that, you know, is always intriguing to me, is what I try to teach my kids, is there's always an answer to the problem.
Okay, are you gonna take some hits and you're gonna look a little different when you're trying to learn this stuff? Yeah, it's gonna, it's not gonna come right away, but. If you start learning it now while no one else is learning it, and you have an answer to the problem, it, it's, you're a completely different hockey player than everyone else is, and it just, it's such a, it's such a huge thing.
Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: A as. The resources, as the knowledge of the game has [00:43:00] increased and the resources have increased, in some ways, it's like, oh, our understanding used to be basic and now it's more surgical. And as it's more surgical, you can drill into this, you can drill into, into that, you can drill into this one. In some ways it's getting more complicated.
And then you hear people say, you know, it's getting more complicated, but really it should be back to basics. Like, we should simplify. It's not that hard. Right. How, how do you think about you know, kind of the back to basics versus the student of the game and really kind of working towards mastery, where the more granular understanding what's the truth?
Cason Hohmann: That's a hard one. That's a good, really good question there. I think it's different from everyone, like I said, but in my opinion, I think it's more surgical and we should start really focusing on what it takes to be a hockey player and what it takes to succeed. Okay. I, it's tough because, you know, not to discredit a lot of coaches out there, but a lot of coaches never played hockey at a high level.
Even in [00:44:00] prep. Prep or junior or club or wherever. Right. They don't, they, they see hockey a certain way and that's just how, how they view it. And it's all across the board. Like you could, you know, you could go play for one coach who gives you all the freedom in the world and you want to do really well and he's back.
He's like, be surgical, make, be creative, you know, go everything you wanna do. And the next season you're playing for a coach who's back to the basics, chip the puck in making sure we're doing this. Making sure you're doing that. So it, it's, it's really tough because you, you don't know where you're gonna play and you don't know what type of mindset the coach you're gonna play for is.
So that's why also it's so important to have an advisor or someone like myself, because I know the coaches and I know what team you're gonna play for. So I want, for a guy who's really creative and has that, you know, wants to do these creative stuff, let's go play for a creative coach that gives you the options to do that stuff.
Okay? If you're a big [00:45:00] six foot forward, defenseman a net front guy, well maybe let's go play for the basic guy because he wants to put you in front of the net and do what you need to do. So I, I, I think it, it's different from everyone, but in my opinion, let's let the creativity flow. Let's, let's go play some three on three hockey and let's do whatever you need to do to get better.
'cause that's how you're gonna improve. And I think that's the most important thing.
Jason Jacobs: We we're, I definitely want to get into, you know, who's, who's your advisory service
for and how does it work and, and all that. But before we do, as all this specialization occurs, and this great access to instruction, proliferates playing the sport. Taking advantage of the resources is getting more and more expensive as the path is getting harder and harder, meaning that it's a bit of an arms race.
How how do you feel about that as it relates to accessibility? Like, should the best players be the ones that rise the furthest in the sport, or should it be the best [00:46:00] players, the best rich players who who, who make it the furthest in the sport?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I mean that's a, that's also a good question. 'cause hockey is expensive and it, it, it's tough because, like I said, mass, the, the high end type of hockey is, is prep school hockey and prep. School hockey is not cheap by any means. So. I, I think it's, you know, a mix of, a mix of both. But like you said, it's usually the guys who, who pay the more get, get further, which it, it's tough.
It's how it, how it, you know, I don't think it should be like that in my opinion. But at the same time it's, you know, you gotta be able to work on the video and get to you where, where you want to be and all these other stuff and kind of make that, make that commitment in a sense of, you know, if you're really believe that you have a D one talent and you can get there, well, you know, what's investing, you know, another $10,000 a year or how much ever you go to these tournaments and how much you ever pay, [00:47:00] what's, what's investing $10,000 a year comparative to, you know, trying to get a $90,000 scholarship at one of these, at one of these schools If you're really serious about hockey.
So, I mean, if you're a middle of the pack guy, I can understand the hesitancy a little bit, but you know. If you really believe in your kid and you believe that you can make it, like, I, I think having some type of investment for your kid is, is really important. Unfortunately, like you said, hockey is an expensive sport.
But I think that just comes with a, with a territory of, of, of the game.
Jason Jacobs: What when it comes to charting the development path, what role should the parent play and what role should the kid play and how does that evolve with age
Cason Hohmann: Wow. I'm going through a lot of that with my parents right now. I think, in my
Jason Jacobs: And, and just to clarify, your parents, meaning the parents of the players that you
represent?
Cason Hohmann: the parents of the players I represent, not, not my parents. I, my dad's not helping me out with beer league anymore, which is
Jason Jacobs: I was gonna
say, yeah.
Cason Hohmann: which [00:48:00] is great. But no, it's, I'm finding that a lot of the parents that I talk to now need, need help because, you know.
Most, most parents aren't XD one hockey players or ex pro hockey players. It's just how it's, it's just there's not
Jason Jacobs: Although a lot of
the players that make it, I recognize those names on the jerseys from their, from when their parents
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, they obviously got, they obviously got a a lot of help, which is
Jason Jacobs: yeah.
Cason Hohmann: but most players aren't that, which is, which is fair. So I think their role should obviously be to support the kid, do whatever they can to put 'em in the right situations. Okay. But what I'm trying to do is, I'm trying to mitigate, they need to know what the best avenue for their kid is.
Like I told you, I've said it like eight times. We don't need them to go play a thousand tournaments. That's, that's not what's gonna be good for them. We don't need them to go shoot a thousand pucks and do shooting stuff. That's not what's gonna be good for them. Okay. We need to work on our skating. We need to get into.[00:49:00]
S we need to get into skates. They're gonna focus more on puck touches and development and understanding the game more than working on stuff that's not gonna do that. So I think for them is, that's kind of their role and to encourage their kid. But I find the problem with a lot of these kids, I've heard it from all my, all these parents, or they go, my kid doesn't listen to me anymore.
He doesn't listen anymore. He doesn't think I ever played hockey. He has thinks, I have no idea what I'm talking about. So it's really hard for these parents to get through to these kids. 'cause some of these kids just don't think these parents have any idea how, how to, how to get them to where they need to get to.
Okay. I'm not saying that's not true, but I just think that's just what the kids think nowadays. Which is, which is crazy. But I think that's somewhere where like someone like me comes in and we can have that buffer of making sure that they understand what they need to do to get to where they need to be.
So it's, it's funny it's, I, I hear a lot of parents go. I've taught, I've told 'em that before. Why aren't they listening to me? Why are they listening to you? And the kid's [00:50:00] like, well, he played hockey at BU and he played pro for seven years. You didn't even, you played high school hockey. And now it's the same.
It's the same thing, but they just, it's crazy is they just don't listen to their parents. I don't, I don't know why that is, but that's just how it goes nowadays. I
Jason Jacobs: when is it that advisors really started to. Become more prominent at the youth level and who, who are advisors for and who aren't they for?
Cason Hohmann: yeah. So I'll give a little background on that. I had an advisor growing up. I had him when I was 15, 16 years old. Committed to be a sophomore year. There's advisors everywhere. There's some big, big agencies. There's some smaller, newer agencies like myself. And I think advisors are for kids who want to go play.
D one hockey, D 1D three, even D 3D three hockey's fantastic nowadays. And there's a lot of fantastic schools that you can get into playing D three hockey that you would never have access to if you didn't play hockey [00:51:00] in a sense either. But I think h advisors for kids who want to make it to the next level.
Okay. There's also advising for kids who want to go play prep school, and their goal is to get into a good prep school too. So that's something that, you know, someone like me or someone like an advisor can help them out with. Okay. But it's just about finding the right advisor too. It's like we already discussed, it's, you know, my advisor growing up and all these advisors are big firms.
Well, they go after the 50 best kids in the, in the country and, you know, eventually two of 'em make it NHL or two of 'em make it pro well they're just throwing darts to the dartboard to get, you know, they're taking all these kids and hopefully two stick and all the other 48. They're like, okay, see you later.
You know? No development, no, no care in the world. So that's kind of like, you know, it's funny 'cause I have a lot of guys that's kind of all their experiences. All these college guys when I was growing up, it's like, Hey, my advisor did nothing. My advisor didn't do anything. Well, it's, they don't care.
They're not focused on development. They just want to have those two kids at the end of the day and everyone else can [00:52:00] kick rocks. Right. So I, I think just understanding that the, the big fancy awesome advising companies that are free aren't usually the best. So that's all I'm gonna, how I'm gonna state it, you know, I, I, I have a, a paid a, a paid system.
This is my full-time job. But having someone that you know, you're investing in your kid and who's completely invested him is way more way, way more important. And I couldn't say it more than going after the big fancy advising company that kind of like how I did when I was younger, because. They don't, they're like the hockey teams.
They don't care about your development. They don't care about your process at all. If you get there, great, you don't get there. Well, they have 49 more kids they have for that age group that are gonna gonna maybe get there. You know what I mean? So I think that's, that's kind of the advising role. But at the same time, advising is, you have to have one.
You have to have one. Especially in junior hockey, [00:53:00] you gotta have someone in your corner. Every single kid who plays junior hockey, college hockey, you know, Canadian Junior Hockey, they all have advisors. It'd be hard to find a kid who doesn't, because what if you get traded? What happens if the coach does this?
You know, what happens if this happens? What happens? This happens. What happens? This happens. Okay, well your parents can't call the coach. 'cause that's not, that's not, you know, taboo. You can't, that's not something that you can, you can do. So you need to have someone in your corner that's fighting for you out throughout the whole entire process.
Jason Jacobs: How, how pervasive are inflated expectations of for a, for a kid's prospects amongst kids and players and families.
Cason Hohmann: Explain that question again. Sorry, that went right over my head.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. So, I mean, I get that, that more resources can help each kid reach their fullest form. Right? But I mean, if, if I'm a family that maybe is, is trying to allocate my dollars [00:54:00] carefully and is really focused on ROI,
right? You know, an advisor can be an investment if it's a calculated gamble that it will lead to, you know, whether it's tuition, scholarship or a pro deal
or whatever it is on the other end. But you know, there must be families that that, or players that you look at and you say, you know what, like, I'll take your money if you want, but like, they're not, you know, and I don't know if you say it out loud, but like, they're not gonna make it. You just know.
Right. And, and so how pervasive. Is that like players hanging onto the dream that, that, that, that it really, all it is, is a dream.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah. Like I said, there's advisors who, they don't care. They're just, they'll take your money, they'll take you even without your money and they'll, they'll never call you once a year. It's just, that's just how a lot of these guys are in the hockey world. It's, it's, it's gives some of these, gives someones like, like me a tough time 'cause it's hard.
But I like to be very open and upfront with all the guys that I sign. So. You know, I [00:55:00] usually try to sign the guys that do have, you know, some sort of a hockey future, so it makes it easier so you don't have to have those conversations. Right. But some other players as well, I'm, I'm very open and then they wanna work with me 'cause they really believe in what I'm doing and it's gonna make them the best hockey player they can.
Even if they want to get into a prep school. Some of these people's goals are prep school, which is fine. Okay. So it's, I like to be like, Hey listen, I'm not gonna promise you be you. I'm not gonna promise you get in. I'm not promising anything, but I can promise you that I'm gonna give you everything I have.
So you're the best hockey player you can possibly be. So it gives them a sense of accountability. They have to watch video every week. It gives them a sense of making sure we're getting on the ice with me. If you're here and we're doing the right things. Okay. It's, it's, for me, it's very, very important to have some of these kids.
Dialed into what, what's actually gonna make them successful. And that's why it's tough for me when I go after some of these kids and they're like, oh, I'm gonna go with so and so. I'm gonna [00:56:00] go with so and so because all I wanna do is scream and be like, he doesn't care about you at all. Right. So, and you can't say that 'cause it looks bad, but at the same time it's, you know, it's the truth.
I've been there, I've been there, I've seen thousands of friends and I've been to three different high schools, played on a million different teams. It's same story over and over and over and over again. Okay. Advisors are taking these players just to throw darts at the dartboard. And it, it's, it's a tough situation.
So it's just understanding, you know, who has the best interest for your kid actually, and making sure they're following through with it.
Jason Jacobs: When it, it, it seems like the advisor role and player development in, in, in some roles, in some ways are starting to merge,
right? Where, where it used to be that that advising was about relationships, recruiting, making phone calls, like being able to speak objectively, et cetera. And now it seems like advisors are starting to get more active in that player [00:57:00] development process.
What do you think is driving that? And also what's the state of the state there in terms of how, how are the player development capabilities in advisor land and what and, and and as they evolve, what does the future have in store?
Cason Hohmann: It's a good question. So I think back when I played there was no video advisors were just advisors. There was no development. It, there's still te really there's not, some of the advisors are still the advisors. I don't think a lot of guys are, are doing what I'm doing. I think something that, something that I'm doing now is kind of different from, you know, a most of this advising world.
It's still the same, it's just basically focused on. Right. I mean, some advisors do have, you know, the video sessions and understanding the game. But what's tough, Jason, is some of these advisors too never, never played hockey, right? And some of these advisors did play hockey. Were six foot four [00:58:00] fighters and grinders, and are they gonna teach you how to score goals?
I don't know. Are they gonna teach you how to get to the right spots on the ice? How to do certain things that are gonna get you to where you want to be? Maybe, maybe they, maybe they have that knowledge of the game. But it's just tough because a lot of these people don't know. They don't know, just like the NHL players don't know, they don't know where to go on the ice.
They don't know all these little tiny little things and schematics of the game and how to break down the game like that in a really high and high, high, you know, level. So it's tough for them to go out there and. And talk about video and development and making sure you're getting better and doing all the little things right.
Well, they don't really know how to do that, so how are they gonna teach you how to do it too? So I, I think that's something that the advising world really struggles with and that's why I'm so excited to, to do this stuff that I'm doing. 'cause we can, you know, I can knock out both at the same time with all the relationships and, and doing this for [00:59:00] a while.
And I think it's, I think it's a fantastic, fantastic thing and I hope, you know, more, more people jump on board with this 'cause it's gonna make all these hockey players so much better.
Jason Jacobs: In 10 years, where do you wanna be professionally?
Cason Hohmann: I want to, I wanna have a big advising thing firm. My advising company is called Commonwealth Hockey Group. I want it to be, I want it to be big and I want to have, you know, a bunch of advisors working under me. And, and, and just really help out these players. I don't want to be like those other companies where we're.
Throwing darts at the dartboard, and we're not really putting the, the players first. And I wanted to be very knowledge based. 'Cause I, I, I just started this back in, you know, I've been doing advising since I retired. But I, I was working for another company, but now I'm doing my own thing starting December.
And I'm already, I have, I'm, it's really progressing. I'm getting a lot of players quickly, which is fantastic, which is great. But now the next thought process, okay, well who else do I need to look at from [01:00:00] professional standpoint that can teach these kids the same way that I can teach these kids? And after all of my, like, players that I played with it, it's not, it's, it's a small list.
There's not a lot of guys that see the game and understand the game. Kind of like how I understand it, in my opinion. So it's, you gotta, you gotta have a guy who's dedicated. Wants to work hard for these kids, wants to make sure they're putting in the development side of the game. And not only that, they understand the development side of the game really, really well.
So I want to have a bunch of guys, you know, in my company that are like that and we can kind of push the game of hockey forward and we're teaching these kids the right way to play. And that's kind of where I see myself down the line. Hopefully working with a bunch of NHL high-end, high-end guys. But at the same time making sure all these kids at a young age are getting the development they need to get to where they need to get to without being thrown to the wind and they're not good enough.
Jason Jacobs: So are you a one man band
Cason Hohmann: [01:01:00] I am a one man band today. Started this in December.
Jason Jacobs: and H, how much of what you do with your time in terms of delivering your services, stuff that only you could do, and how much of it is stuff that could be outsourced if you either had like a junior that you could offload, you know, kind of manual labor or time consuming stuff or technology.
Cason Hohmann: I think I could, you know. It, it's, it's something that I could get someone else underneath me to, to understand and learn. But they have to believe in it, and they have to also have the same mindset I do. And they also have to have some, some sort of degree of a high level of hockey knowledge. You know, you know, if you get a, a really high end player and you're having a discussion with 'em, like in the case of the NHL guys I work with, if you're not matching their IQ level and talking to 'em like you understand the game at a really, really high intense level, they don't care at all.
They'll be like, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. So it's, it's, you, you gotta, you gotta understand it, like really, really, really understand [01:02:00] it. So that's why it's tough, but I think I could offload it to these guys and it's just, you know, making them un believe in what I'm trying to tell 'em, and, and making these guys that wanna work for me eventually understand the game.
Like, I understand it. So I think it would, it would take time. It would almost be like, you know, integrating someone into a company you know, doing onboarding and making sure they have the same, you know, we're gonna do video. I want you to do a video for me. Tell me what your thoughts are on this. I'm gonna ask you questions and, and kind of get 'em to go down the route of, Hey, do you see the same thing?
So I'm seeing, 'cause I know they're gonna be a high level hockey mind, but at the same time I wanna make sure they're really, really understanding how I'm, how I'm seeing things.
Jason Jacobs: Huh And and this, I mean, this gets into some of the stuff that I'm thinking about, and I know you mentioned before we started recording that there's some secret sauce, so don't share anything you, you don't wanna share. But when, but when it comes to the video process is it a [01:03:00] highly manual process?
You, you mentioned, for example, that you love 49 ing. You know, are you using 49 ing to kind of lay out some of the data that, that you're then putting, putting your layer of analysis on top? Or are you going through an annotating by hand? Like what, what does that process look like?
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, so I, I use 49 ing. It's a great platform. Kid to play at
Jason Jacobs: Mi Mike
Jamison's gonna come on the show, by the way.
Cason Hohmann: Does it. He's fantastic guy. We use it at bb and n and a lot of guys use it. I feel like it's a lot, a lot more college and pro teams are gonna start using it 'cause it's such a great service. But yeah, I don't really, I, it just clips the shift for the kids for me.
I can go into that and. I can find any kid who played prep, prep hockey, or any type of high level hockey, and I can pick their name and I can watch any of their games, which is fantastic. It's a great tool for me to find kids that I want to, you know, be an advisor for, but also my players to go in and, and watch their game.
As it comes to like, you know, going in and, you know, you can clip every single shift, but I really just like to [01:04:00] sit there, bring up the shift. We don't need all those fancy tools and all those, you can make arrows and circles and do all that stuff too, but like, I want to get to a point where maybe the first couple sessions we're doing that, but down the line it's like, you gotta be able to see what I'm seeing without the arrows and the circles and all that stuff.
And you gotta be able to understand, Hey, listen, do you see what I see? And their response after a couple video sessions should be, yes, I understand what you're seeing. Okay. Yeah, there's a lot of different things I teach, you know, I, I just really teach, you know, percentages and consistency and understanding how to be consistent, understanding where to go on the ice to be consistent, understanding how to get speed, understanding how to separate yourself, understanding all, all these things that are crazy.
And I do video sessions with my kids and most of 'em, after the first time go, I, that, it was crazy. I've never thought about 50 of those things. Okay, well that's day one. Like, we gotta, you, you gotta, you gotta, you want to be, these are 18-year-old kids trying to play [01:05:00] juniors. Like, you don't need to understand 50 of 'em, but we gotta start mastering a couple of 'em so you can go make some teams.
Right. So I, I think it's a, it's a great, it's a great process and a great tool. And I think just watching videos of these kids is, is, is fantastic.
Jason Jacobs: Huh. A baseline of, I mean, you mentioned before that looking at where the shots are coming from and how many shots you're getting a game and things like that. Like how, how much does that data come into your analysis process when you watch video with these kids? Do you, do you start with the data baseline to then inform what you're about to watch?
Or is it just all by eye?
Cason Hohmann: It's all, it's all by eye. I do counting and I, I literally, you know, I, I ask a lot of questions. I, the two questions I'll share with you that I ask the most are, how long do you think you had the puck on your stick that period, or how long do you think you had the puck on your stick that game? And like I said before, kids are answers, were always inflated.
They're like, I had the stick on the puck on my stick for this amount of time, this amount of
Jason Jacobs: Do you, do you track it manually
Cason Hohmann: Well,
so I watch shifts.
Jason Jacobs: with a [01:06:00] stopwatch.
Cason Hohmann: stopwatch it. I, I it, and it's, I mean, you can, I can count per shift and after like five shifts it's period. We're good next, next period, right? So a lot of these kids think they have the puck on their stickball game, especially when you first start.
And I'm like, you know, you had the puck on your stick for 20 seconds, the whole game. Like, you know, you wanna put up five points and dominate. Like how are you gonna do that with having the puck on your stick for 20 seconds? It's just never gonna happen. Okay. You're playing a game of luck. You're not playing a game of percentage, you know, can you go out there and get three points?
Yeah. If the puck shoots it off a guy's shin guard and it bounces to you and you're in the wrong spot, yeah you can. Okay. But is that gonna happen every game? No. You gotta be consistent and you gotta understand where you need to go to dominate. Okay. It's funny because I do this thing and as we do video and as we keep going, it's like, okay, well now their puck possessions doubled.
Now their puck possessions tripled. Right now they're, instead of getting, you know, two scoring chances a game, they're getting five. You know, instead of making, [01:07:00] you know, two or three C minus plays with a puck in the offensive zone, they're making seven a plus decisions. And they're like, you know, there's gonna be games where you get really unlucky and you get one point.
There's gonna be games where you're doing the right things. You're getting really lucky. And you're getting six now. You're looking at six. You're getting five, five point games every once in a while, especially at the junior, at the, the youth level. Right. So that, that's something that I really like to focus on.
And the second question I ask is, how many times throughout the game did you think you've went full speed? And a lot of these kids think, and they go once, and I'm like, yeah, maybe one time. Like, you know, you know, I How many times do you think your kid goes full speed a game? Like if you were to literally skate as fast as he can up and down the rink, how many times do you think he reaches that, that full speed?
Jason Jacobs: Well, I, I mean, a, a related question is, is there too much? Because sometimes I feel like with him, and gosh, I, I'm really trying to make this journey not about
him. Right. But [01:08:00] but like, I feel like it's like, it's like two and a, it's just like run, run,
run, run, like, run everywhere. And it's like, dude, like, like I get that you wanna be, you, you wanna hustle and be a two-way player.
But like, but like, sometimes it feels a little bit like, you know, like the little guy where like you put your arm out and they're just punching air and they're like spending all their energy punching air and they're not making any contact, you
Cason Hohmann: yeah, exactly. But I ask like, besides like a Ford check, you know what I mean? Or like
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Cason Hohmann: I ask these kids and I go like, you know, like obviously McDavid and McKinnon and some of these guys are so good at hockey. I mean, they're way more gifted than a lot of people. But how many times do those guys get the puck with speed and they're flying up the rink like all the time?
It's 'cause they understand all these things that I'm trying to teach these kids. And they understand separation, they understand space, and they understand timing and they understand all these little details.
Jason Jacobs: so you're saying it's, it, it's, it's, it's almost like you need to create the space to get, to give your jets a time to get up to cruising altitude.
Cason Hohmann: It's like I, I [01:09:00] can, yeah, it's like playing tag. Ja. Everyone's responsible for someone on the rink. Okay? If you're a winger and the puck gets dumped down back into your zone, well that defenseman's responsible for you, right? So if you lolly gag back into your zone and he lolly gags back into your back, into this, up into your zone, you're never getting a degree of separation from him.
So you need to skate hard as you can. So now when you get the puck and you turn back around to go offense, he's really far away from you instead of being right next to you in a sense. So that's something I like to teach my players.
Jason Jacobs: do, do you think that that that you could watch a game and come up with a, if you don't have one already, come up with a scoring system either like a, like, like a whoop score, you know, kind of like a number,
right. or, or or a letter grade for, you know, like an overarching grade and then like subgrade around key categories.
Cason Hohmann: I think I could do that. The only I thought about that as well. I mean, the only problem is, is it's based off of like, you're probably gonna have a better scoring system if you play more shifts. Are you gonna have a better scoring if, you know what happens if your team's up seven to [01:10:00] one and you're not playing at all in a third period, right?
You're just gonna sit on the bench. 'cause the coach knows the game's over. He is not gonna play us best players. Right? So, I mean, that's all well and good, but I think there's so many variables that it, it, it can't, it can't be really measured in that sense. But I, I like to measure, you know, time of possession with the puck on your stick.
You know, how long, you know, how many times are you getting the puck going full speed? And how many times are, you know, you, you actually, instead of accepting a shot from the corner, that's never gonna go in, that you're turning back up and getting into the spot that's gonna make you the most dangerous.
Like these little tiny things that I, you know, they're measurables and we could, we can measure 'em. But I, I measure 'em via personal one-on-one talks when we're, when we're doing video together every single week, it's like, you see, you see what I'm seeing? He's like, yeah, okay. Well we gotta start doing it now.
Right? So I, I think that's something that's, you know, more important for me instead of having a, a system right now. But I can definitely see how a [01:11:00] system would be, would be successful down the line.
Jason Jacobs: If if the machines were to do a pass and review the film and lay out either data or analysis or something for you, do you feel like there's things that the machines could do that would save you a bunch of times? So you could just kind of do the things that only you could do with what's in your brain with your experience and, you know, decades of playing at a high level and stuff like that, like, that would make you more efficient such that you could deliver the same output with with more leverage on your
Cason Hohmann: Yeah, I think you, I think it'd be fantastic. I'm not an, I don't know how to do that stuff. You probably know way better than me, obviously.
Jason Jacobs: Well that's what I'm gonna, that's what I'm thinking of
doing, but like, I don't know how to do it. But what I'm trying to do to be honest, is get the people like you that know how to. Do
it as a human and get the people that, that, with the machines that know how to train the machines to do what the human can do and get them together, not as a replacement for the human, but to leverage the human's time such that you can lower the price point for a kid and family and increase the accessibility of high end play development for, for more kids.
Right. And again, not as a [01:12:00] replacement for what the kids are getting at the tippy top because the tippy top, it's always gonna be better, but a lot of people can't afford the tippy top or, or don't have kids that it's good enough to just, that are good enough to justify, but could still benefit
Cason Hohmann: yeah, I, I, I agree. I agree a hundred percent. I think that would be absolutely fantastic. That would be groundbreaking because like I said, I, I put so much time and effort to these kids that I only have one me, right? I can't go around and take my, I only have a certain amount of time in the day to, to, to teach kids and give kids knowledge.
Also, you know, I'm doing skates. I'm, I'm coaching, I have. All these other things that I'm doing. So to have a system like that in place would be, would be great. It would just have to be very based off of a, a thought process. That's, that's not the same in my opinion. Like, especially specifically for me. I don't, you know, I would need certain, certain measurables that I can only I in my brain sees that would be successful.
Jason Jacobs: that's the hard part. I bet I, I don't know this 'cause I haven't talked to enough of you
guys, but like I have, my early [01:13:00] sense is that each of you guys has your own way. And there's no right or wrong, it's just like different strokes for different folks, but like, but coming up with a baseline that's actually relevant across Right.
Seems very hard.
Cason Hohmann: Yeah. A hundred percent. I, I, I agree with that. But if there was a way to get the measurables down and, and somehow clip those up and, and put 'em out there at a very fast pace, that would be, that'd be game changing for me.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, because that, that's what I'm thinking is like, is like, instead of focusing on the team and
coach, right, who's looking at like what lines to run and how to win games. Right. You know, centering a platform around player development where it's about you know, extending the human player development, the great human player development people's capabilities to reach more kids in a more efficient way.
Right? Which could then lower the price point for kid or, and, and, and family. And, and yeah, some of that is, is like the baseline data, but some of that might also be like, Hey, you did it wrong. Let me go find some examples of an [01:14:00] NHL guy that did it. Right. And then instead of like hunting for an hour, it's like just, you know, type in a little prompt of what you're looking for and it just tees up five awesome
Cason Hohmann: that would be awesome too. 'cause I, I find like, I, like I said before, one of my, the toughest things is, is finding clips of what I'm trying to teach these kids. And I don't want it to just be the same guys. I could go on there and look at McDavid and McKinnon and all these high-end guys. Doing the stuff I'm teaching, but it's just like, okay, those guys are the best players in the NHL.
Like obviously they can do that, right? I need, I would love to be able to type something in and find an average NHL guy who completely understands this stuff, or even a college hockey player that goes in and understands it and, and is getting to those points even if he doesn't understand. There's times where I'm watching hockey I, and I'm watching college or pro or whatever, and these guys who I can clearly watch, see that have literally no idea what their goal is on the, in the offensive zone, are getting up to where they need to be or going to the right space.
And it's funny 'cause then it gets to 'em and they're in the right space on [01:15:00] accident and they're producing because they're, they're where they need to be. But I I, it's funny to me because I, I see it and it's not on purpose, which I guess the, the human eye that doesn't go mad scientist mode on hockey like I do thinks it's, it's planned.
But I can, I can see when it's pur purposeful or not. I think finding those clips and putting those moments would be, would be huge.
Jason Jacobs: Huh.
Cool. Well, I mean this was such a, such a fascinating discussion. We covered a lot of
ground. Is there anything I didn't ask you, Cason, that you wish I did? Or any parting words for listeners?
Cason Hohmann: Not really at all. I'm, I, I'm, you know, obviously I'm very passionate about what I do. I, I love the game of hockey. I love teaching kids and, and getting 'em to where they want to be development wise. It's something that's really pat, really important to me and big in my heart to do, and I appreciate you having me, having me on here.
I really don't have any other, I think we, I think we covered every little thing that we need to talk about. But yeah, I would love to, love [01:16:00] to help out in any way possible down the line. If you have anything for me and, you know, any other questions down the line, I would love to, to chat and, and discuss.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, well, a few things.
One, I'm thrilled my kids out there with you a couple times a week this summer. That's been really special and
awesome. And I'm a, I'm a big fan of of, you know, both your passion and your, your practice. And second I don't it seems, sounds like we both believe that the next wave in player development is led by
video.
Right. And so I don't know what I'm building yet, but but yeah as I get further along, you're gonna be an invaluable sounding board because we're thinking about a lot of the same stuff. And then third, like, yeah, I would love to find. You know, stuff to do together and I'm, I'm meeting all these great people and it's like, I wanna lift all boats and, but it's like, I don't know what I'm building yet, right?
So, and gosh, I've been flailing in the breeze learning out loud every week, which is super nauseating and I, I kind of curl up in fetal position after I hit send every week on these updates. So I'm, and I, yeah, you're not on there yet, but maybe I'll put you on the next one with your permission.
But but yeah, you know, psyched to get further along, psyched to keep the dialogue going, wishing you every success with, you [01:17:00] know, with your growing business and and with your journey in the
sport,
Cason Hohmann: Thanks for having me. I know it's, it's probably crazy with all the different, different hockey minds all over the place, but I think it's gonna be fantastic.
Jason Jacobs: best sport on earth.
Cason Hohmann: A hundred percent.
Jason Jacobs: Thank you for tuning in to The Next Next. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did and you haven't already, you can subscribe from your favorite podcast player, whether it's Apple, Spotify, or any of the others. We also send a newsletter every week on the journey itself. The new content that we publish, the questions that we're wrestling with, how the platform itself is coming along, that we're planning to build for player development, and where we could use some help.
And you can find that at the next next.substack.com. Thanks a lot and see you soon.