In this episode of 'The Next Next,' host Jason Jacobs delves into youth athlete development with Brett Leonard, a former UVM hockey captain who transitioned into data-driven athlete development. Brett shares his journey from a player to an elite skills coach, emphasizing the importance of game-specific training and situational awareness. The conversation covers his innovative methods of using video analysis and analytics to improve player performance, highlighting the limitations of traditional training techniques and the potential for scaling his practices to benefit a broader audience.
In this episode of 'The Next Next,' host Jason Jacobs delves deep into the nuances of athlete development with guest Brett Leonard, a former UVM hockey captain turned elite player development coach. Leonard discusses his journey from building a local gym and coaching Vermont youth hockey to specializing in video-driven, data-centric training methods for D1 and pro athletes. The conversation explores the importance of game situational practice over traditional drill-based training, and Leonard shares insights on how leveraging data analytics can significantly improve player development. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of sports training.
00:00 Introduction to The Next Next
00:51 Meet Brett Leonard: From UVM Captain to Elite Hockey Trainer
04:41 Brett's Early Hockey Journey and Family Influence
08:49 The Importance of Multi-Sport Play and Free Play
17:54 Transition from Player to Coach: Building Vermont Hockey Training Center
20:32 Specialized Training: From Mass Development to Elite Individual Focus
29:04 The Light Bulb Moment
29:28 Off-Puck Strategies
30:20 Analyzing Player Performance
32:17 Tracking and Customizing Player Data
35:53 Manual vs. Automated Data Tracking
38:16 Data-Driven Player Development
41:07 Challenges and Future of Player Development
51:53 Practical Training Techniques
57:47 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions
[00:00:00]
Jason Jacobs: Welcome to The Next Next. I'm the host, Jason Jacobs. This show sorts through the nuances of athlete development, specifically focused on youth sports. I'm coming at it from the perspective. Of a founder who's potentially building my next company in athlete development, specifically around helping players and families navigate their athlete development journey.
But also as a sports dad, since I find that there are certain things that are really black and white in terms of what's right and what's wrong, but then there's a whole lot of gray area in the middle, and it's tricky. I know I struggle with it, and maybe some of you do as well. So this show brings on well-placed guests from a wide range of perspectives to inform my worldview over time and help each of you inform your worldviews as well.
Today's guest is Brett Leonard. Brett is a former UVM hockey captain and. From there, he got into [00:01:00] player development and started with the masses, if you will, focused on youth hockey and tournament teams and camps and things like that. And uncovered video analysis, got really data-driven about it, and his approach was one that went really deep with a handful of athletes, and so he kind of naturally gravitated towards serving.
More elite athletes today through Leonard Hockey. He has about 50 clients and he works with those clients to do video analysis with this really data-driven approach to isolate key areas to work on that are high frequency and high failure rate, and then simulates game scenarios to address them specifically in on ice formats.
It's a fascinating discussion and I hope you enjoy it.
Okay, Brett Leonard, welcome to the show.
Brett Leonard: Oh, thanks for having me.
Jason Jacobs: Thanks for coming. First I, I need a little disclaimer. I'm super excited for this discussion and you [00:02:00] are the kind of person I would've done a lot of prep for. But I just met you last night and then we just made this podcast work this morning, and I wasn't gonna turn down the opportunity to get you on the show.
So I've done some, but not as much as I wanted to, and I just wanted to put that out there. But I did learn that you were captain at UVM and that you're five six, which gives hope to all, you know, I'm five eight, my wife's five feet, right? And so, uh, gives me some, it's like dumb dumber, like, so you're saying there's a chance, you know,
Brett Leonard: yep.
Jason Jacobs: Um, and then you've been working in in the hockey world for a long time. And, um. And as we were chatting about you, there was a time when you were doing more camps and clubs and and now you, and, and then you have this epiphany and, and more video and more data-driven and more smaller client base and more working with more closely to do data-driven video analysis and then personalized development plans for some of the best players in the game.
And that is so cool and relevant and awesome to everything I'm thinking about. I'm just so [00:03:00] grateful and honored that you made the time to come on the show,
Brett Leonard: Yeah, no, I, I'm grateful too. And, and disclaimer, I'm more like five, four and a half. Five five. They always boost you up a little bit, so if that makes you feel better, I, I'm not even quite five six, so,
Jason Jacobs: man. Yeah. And, uh, and speaking of UVM, I'm sitting here in Vermont and I'm wearing a, a, uh, a Vermont shirt and, um, yeah. And, and talking to the former captain of UVM. Love Vermont for what it's worth. And you, you grew up here too,
Brett Leonard: Yep, yep. No, born and raised. Uh, grew up, I left for prep school just in New Hampshire for two years, but even played junior hockey back in Vermont the year before. I went to UVM and, and lived there up until two years ago when I relocated to Massachusetts, as you mentioned. Just getting more into data driven, really elite, high level players.
Um, it just made more sense to, to relocate to the Boston area where players had better access to me. And I still actually have a lot of Vermont. I have three Vermont players [00:04:00] that stay in mass for the summer, uh, to, to stay with me and I'll be going back for a camp. So still stay well connected to the Vermont players I've worked with.
Um, but. Obviously Boston's a little bit better of a location for players all over the country to, to fly in and, and work, uh, when the time needs.
Jason Jacobs: It is unfortunate that's true because we, we were hoping to spend as much time as we could in Vermont this summer, and then one by one, these things keep coming up. For hockey grind that are like can't say no kind of stuff at home. And then it's like, it's like, all right, well there's goes Mondays and then it's like, there goes Tuesdays and there's goes Wednesdays and there, and the next day.
And then it's like, oh, this tournament on the, and it's like, why do we even try,
Brett Leonard: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: We're never gonna get away. But anyways I want, I wanna go way back. So, in the little bit of prep that I did, one of the things that I learned is that your dad built a rink and you started skating on a rink at home when you were four.
Where did that come from? Did he play, like, you know, where, like where did you get the idea and how did hockey first come in your life?
Brett Leonard: Yeah. No, uh, I was for, [00:05:00] my dad had no hockey background whatsoever. He actually built a career in the hockey world. He still runs tournaments at JP in Vermont. Uh, he is been doing that for 15, 20 years. He
Jason Jacobs: like one of the tournament, the, uh, the New England Tournament Capitals of the
Brett Leonard: Oh yeah. Yep. So he runs those. Um, no, my older brother had some friends in hockey and he wanted to start trying it.
He was probably six or seven. I was three or four years old. So my dad, you know, loving parent, just wanted to give us everything we, we wanted to do. So my older brother got into it and he kind of dragged me along into it. So I really benefited that. I got to learn to skate when I was probably two and a half, three years old.
He had a flexible job at that time, so I remember going to Letty on the, the little rink there and, and doing like a public skate with him. And picked it up pretty quick and fell in love with it and played a couple years in Burlington. But again, I, I benefited that everything he was kind of trying with my older brother, I got to [00:06:00] tag along, I got to skate with some older kids and then, you know, as I got older, he had already kind of built some stuff where now it was easy for my age group to, to start to do stuff.
So he, he was the first one to kind of start spring teams. Back then there wasn't triple A, like triple A spring. Yeah, there was Boston and Montreal, but there wasn't really, you know, a Vermont based team. So I got a lot of benefits. The work he did without a hockey background to just give us opportunity being Vermont kids and going and playing in, in tournaments and practicing together and all that.
Jason Jacobs: Is the oldest, so should the oldest even try to be great in sports or are they just doomed?
Brett Leonard: I mean, what I look at what Quinn Hughes is the oldest, I think he's doing pretty well. So some others. But yeah, I think there is, it depends on, I guess on the background of the family. Sure. If you are not a hockey background and you start late, it'd definitely be a, a tougher road. But there's definitely, I think [00:07:00] some benefit to being a younger sibling.
And then you have the, you know, the older brother to look up to and, and just learn from. And even I see it in my, I have a son that's seven and he can do some of the stuff that some of my pros struggle to even try to do. But he's been a sponge where he'll come out in the ice sometimes. He is not even doing drills or anything, he's just out there in the environment.
And before you know it, I'm, I look down at the other end and he's trying to do what, he's seeing me teach the pros and without me even coaching it, he's like a sponge and all of a sudden he, he's doing it himself. So I think, yeah the environment can help if you get that early exposure through, again, a parent, an older sibling or, or just that opportunity to, to be around the game as much as you can.
Jason Jacobs: Huh, well, there's a whole nature and nurture discussion that I wanna have, but before I, before we go down that path at just talking a little more about your journey, so, at, at what point did you, uh, start to take it real serious? Like, did that come from a young age? Did you, if, [00:08:00] if I'd asked, you know, little Brett would you have said that you aspire to play hockey at the highest levels?
Or, or did that happen later?
Brett Leonard: Oh, pretty much right away. I was also fortunate probably when I was about eight or nine, was the St. Louis parent era at, at Vermont and being a Vermonter like that was our pro team going to Catamount games. That was like the Boston Bruins for us, for a Massachusetts kids. So.
Early on going to those, I was also fortunate enough, I had a All American former UVM, all American in the seventies. Will McKinnon was my coach through youth hockey. And I'd go to games with him, um, and, and his son and, and just I dreamed of playing at Vermont and had big goals from the earliest I can remember playing.
So it, it was always just a passion of mine and yeah.
Jason Jacobs: And so coming up where did hockey fit in your portfolio of sports? Did you play multiple sports? And similarly uh, I know when, when we [00:09:00] were growing up, there was a lot more just kind of free play, where now it's a lot more like getting the, you know, getting the little guys dialed in from the earliest ages.
Right. And so what was it like in the, in the Leonard house?
Brett Leonard: Yeah, honestly, like I, I played a bit of soccer, I played a little bit of lacrosse, but I didn't do much organized other sports. But at the same time, it was a different time where I remember playing, you know, a park down the street in my neighborhood. We'd play, or we'd just organize our own football games or handball or basketball.
So I, I remember being very active in other sports, but just not structured. Again, I did play a little bit of soccer. I, I played lacrosse for maybe a year in middle school, then didn't, and then I picked it up my junior year of high school and, and played varsity for a year. I played at prep school for a year.
But it, it was, it was mostly hockey with, and training. And then I. [00:10:00] Again, more unorganized, athleticism, I guess, through playing with friends and, and just unstructured play.
Jason Jacobs: And what's your assessment with the benefit of hindsight? Just in terms of I mean, there's something to be said for free play and creativity and just messing around and figuring stuff out on your own and going out when you wanna go out and knocking out when you don't want to go out. But then the, the flip side is instilling good habits in kids early and work ethic and structure and learning mastery and breaking down the, the bigger goal into sub goals and working on each of the sub goals, like how, uh, how do you think youth development should be done? And, and maybe maybe there's no one size fits all answer, but, but just how do you think about it?
Brett Leonard: sure. Multiple things. So I, I think other sports are important. I think Yes, from an athleticism standpoint and using different muscles, sure, there's, there's gotta be benefit. But I think the real value comes from, like, if I had to choose for my son, if he could play [00:11:00] baseball or soccer, I'd pick soccer or lacrosse.
I think a lot of the transfer of training and, and the encouragement of multiple sports would come more from the IQ side, where again, you're reading, you know, the space between two defenders, you're reading the speed of the movement of a, a teammate off the ball, or you're trying to get open for your teammate who has a, has a ball, right?
Like, I think there's less talk about that where I think that's a big value in terms of playing other sports. And I think I got that through the recreation stuff I did, or again, there was no one really teaching us. You just kinda learned by playing and, and you fail at something, you didn't get open, you didn't get the ball well.
Kids are smart, they're gonna learn next time to, to run a little bit faster or, or take a different route. Um, I think a lot of that can be kind of self-taught just by, by playing. And, and to go back to what you I guess I didn't answer it earlier. My dad built a, a backyard rink when I was really young and, and a lot of that was, playing two on two with friends and just going out and playing [00:12:00] and trying different moves.
And it was, you know, before the real, wasn't before internet, but it was before definitely, you know, Instagram and all that stuff where, we didn't see what, daily highlights and be able to go practice it. But creativity was still there. And I think one of the best things I did for development was just stick and puck.
Um, I remember dunno if you've heard of Swaggy P
Jason Jacobs: Oh
Brett Leonard: elevate. Yep. So he was my best friend growing up. We were like,
Jason Jacobs: Tyler, so, um, yeah, my son, my son trains at Elevate in the Boston area. Actually, both the Andover one and the one in the South Shore. But we've never been to the Vermont and we were hoping to go this summer if we're ever gonna be here.
Brett Leonard: Sure. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, so we were, we were two kind of peas in a pod, just both obsessed with hockey. We, we'd roller blade, we'd play one-on-one rollerblading. We'd go to stick and pox and just live at the rink and play, pick up games with sometimes those players, older, sometimes it was younger.
And I remember my game really taking off, I think it was, it was one summer where it was [00:13:00] just, they had it every day, stick and puck. And we'd, we'd go there and then we'd roller blade, then we'd, we'd work out or just play. And again, that, that big piece of my development was definitely from just being passionate and wanting to get better and, and self-driven.
But just being in an environment where I could try new moves and, and practice and have fun and, and grow the passion for the game. Um, I think that's, that can be missing sometimes these days with, you know, how organized everything is. Even though that is my job to be organizing and, and giving a lot of private work and, and small group work, um, I do think there is still value in, in the player and sure, it can definitely speed up the process if you've got, you know, a coach like me or, or someone that can help you kinda direct your focus of what you're trying to develop.
But again, there's, there's a lot to be said for just unstructured play, both on the ice, off the ice and, and what you can learn, especially at a young age.
Jason Jacobs: I really struggle with that as a [00:14:00] dad. And, and actually it's one of the reasons why I'm not rushing to building with this, athlete development platform that we're thinking about is that I really want to pressure test my worldview before heading out. Because on the one hand, I totally agree with what you're saying, that you know, free play makes sure that.
If you're doing it for love, because if you weren't doing it for love, you'd be doing something else. Right. And and also leaves lots of room for creativity and trying stuff with no pressure, um, uh, that you can then bring in the gameplay. And if it's too structured, then you never actually learn how to fill your own time.
You never learn how to be self-directed. Right. So all of that makes sense. I think the problem is, you mentioned that the en the environment, right? Uh, well the environment growing up is that you look out your window and that environment was there, there was a net out there and a zillion little, a zillion kids running around playing and free play just existed.
Brett Leonard: Yep.
Jason Jacobs: now you look out your window and everyone structured and getting erased around to all the rigid stuff and your kid's just left there with his phone. And, and it's like, well, shit, like that's not, that's not good for anybody if he's [00:15:00] just gonna sit there and, and be left with his phone.
So we're gonna go out and be productive. So he's not gonna just sit here and rot. But then when you. Schedule the, all the production. Right? Then it's like, how's he gonna learn how to, how to be productive himself. Right. And uh, and I say he, I mean, certainly that's true with my daughter as well.
She's just a little younger so she's, you know, she's just coming into those years. But yeah. How, like how do you think about that tension given that a lot of that infrastructure that we grew up with doesn't exist?
Brett Leonard: Yeah. So one thing I try to do with my son is a lot of times I do some different skill stuff for his age group. Sometimes we have three kids, two kids, five kids, whatever. A lot of ti, a lot of the time spent instead of doing drills is I let, one of my favorite games is they play one v, one V one. So instead of trying to teach them again, they're seven, instead of start to try to teach them puck protection and these rigid type things, I just put 'em in an environment where they play one V one V one, and again, I think [00:16:00] kids can definitely learn some on their own by just success and fail.
If they lose the puck. And when I do have multiple kids out there, I'll even play it where you stay in until you turn the puck over, then you come out and a new player comes in. So there's always three in. So now you put a task at hand where they're gonna want to, obviously they want to play, they want to be in there as long as they can.
Now that you told them, Hey, you come out, if you lose that puck, now you start to see them put in a little extra effort in protecting the puck. Whereas if I just let them play two on two and it wasn't really any, I guess punishment for not doing something, then they, they can get bad habits and stuff like that.
But. That's one of my favorite things to do. And, and a lot of it is just, again, I guess there is some structure to that, but but by making them just play and learn. Now, obviously being out there as a coach, I can at times if I see like the, a common mistake amongst all of 'em or right. I might pull 'em in and, and talk 'em through the situation they're seeing and, [00:17:00] and why they're not having success.
And then that helps again, speed up the process. But I do think there's still a lot of value to them kind of self exploring, putting them in game, real game type situations, and then letting them explore how to problem solve it.
Jason Jacobs: Uh huh. Yeah, it's, it's tricky. Because I mean, we grew up in a time and then there's certain, certain elements of. The lessons that we learned from growing up that I think are timeless. And then there's other lessons that we learned from growing up where it's like, well, yeah, but it's a different time.
And so I think figuring out the ones that are timeless and then the ones that are now not as relevant because it's a different time is one of the trickiest things that I find as a, as a parent. And I mean, we're talking about it in the context of sports parent, but certainly I think it, it it, it affects more than, than just sports.
Brett Leonard: Sure. Absolutely.
Jason Jacobs: So at, at what point, I guess talk a, we haven't talked much about your playing days, so maybe we should, [00:18:00] but but I'm also interested in the transition from your playing days to to teaching. Did, yeah. So, I guess start wherever you want,
Brett Leonard: Yeah, yeah
Jason Jacobs: with your, share whatever you want about your playing days and then that transition.
Not a very good question, but take it away.
Brett Leonard: yeah. No, so I knew even when I was at UVM, so like I mentioned, my dad started you know, spring teams and, and different tournaments and, and different programs for Vermont hockey. And I think even when I was in prep school, I was starting to, coach and, and help out at camps. And I knew I always wanted to get into the coaching side.
So when I was at Vermont, again, I would, I would coach as teams in the, in the spring and summertime. I was really big into off ice training you know, I studied that in school. And then yeah, right before my senior year, I. I had already kind of decided I wanted to pursue opening a gym 'cause there wasn't really an option in Vermont.
And, and [00:19:00] just learning from guys from Minnesota and Massachusetts and stuff from my Vermont team realized like,
Jason Jacobs: This was a like an off ice hockey specific gym.
Brett Leonard: Yeah, exactly. They're just,
Jason Jacobs: I wanna open one of
Brett Leonard: yeah, they're all over the place and, you know, obviously these guys. So I was very passionate about Vermont hockey specifically and helping kind of raise the bar.
So I, I remember writing my business plan over a spring break after my last games at Vermont. And I opened a gym two weeks before I skipped my graduation to, to paint the gym. And I opened up a, a place that was called VHTC, Vermont Hockey Training Center, and did that for almost 10 years. So I started with the strength and conditioning side and got my CSCS, uh, right after I graduated.
Opened the gym was located in, in South Burlington, 3000 square feet. I then expanded three years in to a play, a big warehouse in Winooski, and had about 8,000 square feet. Had [00:20:00] synthetic ice shooting, area turf, everything a hockey player would pretty much want without having an ice rink in there. Was provided so, and then connected to that, started providing on ice skills sessions some spring teams and really just tried to kind of provide what, wore a lot of hats to try to provide Vermont hockey, an elite training environment to develop from there.
Like you mentioned earlier, I started getting into, uh, the video side. So I, I started working with a couple of players with video and up until that point I was doing a lot of, again, mass kind of development. Put 30 kids on the ice, put obstacles on the ice, try to, you know, give every kid as much attention as possible.
I also started a, a program called Dynamo Hockey Club, which was the AAA team a few years ago for players. So again, I, I
Jason Jacobs: like we've, uh, my sun scheme has played them in, [00:21:00] in in some tournaments along the way.
Brett Leonard: Yep. So yeah, I had teams, I had camps, clinics, leagues, you name it. You know, again, trying to just provide as many options for Vermont kids. And then I started getting players that had a lot of success and, and all of a sudden, parents of, of kids from outside the state are starting to ask, you know.
Who do you work with? Who? And then all of a sudden I started having players come to me in Vermont from other places, which was really cool. And then I took a job with Kimball Union Academy with, uh, Tim Whitehead, who was the coach at U Maine when I was at Vermont. And so I started working with some really good players at KUA who, who enjoyed it.
And they started seeing me for video and, and some other work. And then, yeah, it just kind of took off where this started my, my last few years in Vermont, I started getting really passionate about how much more effect I could have individualizing things, actually understanding the player what [00:22:00] they're actually doing in games.
And this is where kind of my, my current career has taken off with the analytics and, and personal game development, uh, for my players. So then I relocated to Boston two years ago. Uh, just it made more sense with where the base of my players were from. Also just an easy access, easier access to, to fly into Boston from around the country than, than to come to Vermont.
Jason Jacobs: Huh And when we talked, uh, last night, you were talking about almost a transition from working with more like the mainstream. Kids and families in the sport to maybe a smaller higher end client base in terms of just age and level of play. WW why do you think that you ended up gravitating in that direction?
Brett Leonard: Um, good. It was more like, so the players that are gonna be interested in that are typically, and I have no [00:23:00] age restrictions really don't even restrict how talented the player is. It's more of how. How into it they are and how much they wanna be coached and developed. And again, it's very, the, what I do is not for everyone.
It is very specific. It is very intensive. And, but I really enjoy it. And again, it's, I found there's so much more value when you can get as specific for that player as possible. So I think it just naturally players gravitated that are either already playing an elite level or right on the cusp of saying, going from college to pro, or they're in the American League and they're trying to make the jump to the NHL.
Uh, those, those type of players just are, really dying for that type of work versus, you know, just the average hockey player.
Jason Jacobs: Huh And when you were explaining it to me last night, it, I mean, it just sounded so intuitive where you you use video to look at their [00:24:00] gameplay with a very approach where you're, so I'm, I'm gonna attempt to explain it to also testify, understand it. But use a very data-driven approach where you look for situations that are both high frequency and and where you can get a lot of gain from.
Fixing it, right? So I forget the word you used. Maybe it's high frequency, high failure, right? Um, but but then looking for ways to teach where instead of just like focused on your shooting or your stick handling or jumping up and down 10 times or something like that, you're looking to recreate that type of game environment to isolate that issue and work on it specifically.
One, did I get that right? And two, where did that come from? Is that, is that prevailing wisdom? Were there certain inspirations, like, like what led you down the path of that insight that was such an effective way to train?
Brett Leonard: Yeah, no, great question. I'll tell this story. I think I mentioned it to you last night. So like, when I was in college, if you [00:25:00] wanted to do video work, you'd meet with an assistant coach, you'd go through your shifts, right? And they'd point out a thing here or there that you could have done better.
Right. And I remember walking out at best maybe remembering one or two things, right? So we, we would jump around from, maybe I, I missed coverage in the D zone to, I didn't get a puck in deep in the nutri zone to, I wasn't in the right spot in the offense zone. And obviously you can imagine you get 30 different things that are all.
Different. It's really hard to learn that way. So I, I started video work for players and I started the same way. And then I realized like, again, I, this is no better. So, you know, some inspirations, like Darryl Bery, I, I've read all of his books. I, I've followed him for a long time.
Jason Jacobs: I'm, uh, I'm just finishing his first book and I've got, I've got. His other one's queued up actually.
Brett Leonard: yeah. So like, even when I was at Vermont, he, I think he was just coming more kind of publicly known. And I, quickly it just resonated with me, his [00:26:00] philosophy on stuff. And I, I quickly, kind of pivoted down that way and, and, but, you know, added my own tweaks and my own experiments with players.
But that kinda led me into some of this, game transfer and, and actually looking at players video. So a cool story, like I had been doing video review for a few college players and one. Wanted to, he had just transferred from, uh, uh, an Atlantic school, seen as a, a lower level league compared to the Hockey East.
He had transferred to a hockey school. They gave him a chance. His Atlantic school team told him, you know, he probably would never be better than a sixth or seventh defenseman there. Uh, that was the COVID year he played there. He transfers to Merrimack where I, I currently have a job and I'll explain that later.
But he was playing his former team that night and I prepped some video and he, he had asked for a couple of days before, like, I want start bringing back my offensive game. And he had [00:27:00] proved himself defensively. He worked himself up the depth chart. He was playing regular 18, 20 minutes a night like a defenseman and was doing really well defensively.
So now it was time to add some offense and I just kind of had this hunch when I was doing it. I was about ready to show him some. Uh, some of his shots and pull some, you know, Kama car clips and, and show him how he could, maybe create some more dangerous moves at the blue line and something just by watching his Gabes and again, doing the shift review, something just didn't seem right.
So I actually, this was kind of before I had any access to any kind of analytics I with, with a notebook and pen. Went through four of his most recent games and just hand tracked some data of how much was he getting the puck in the offensive zone, how much was he activating in the rush? And it just dawned on me that he'd only touched the puck one and a half times per game in the offensive zone and his activation, which is a great opportunity for defensemen to get into the rush and be [00:28:00] active in the rush.
He out of 18 times, only activated once or twice, and when he did, he was late. Never got the puck. So he never touched the puck. Once in transition in four games, only touched the puck one and a half times on average per game. So it just it, it blew my mind. So instead of showing him a car clips of how he could, you know, make better moves at the blue line, I showed him 20 minutes of clips of how he could just first start getting the puck.
He can't, he can't make moves and, and get great shots and score goals and be offensive if you're not getting the puck. So I showed him 15 times, and this gets back to like the shift review. It's much more powerful if I show him 15 clips of a very similar situation where he's the net front d, there's an opportunity to read the play better and activate and fill a space that's needed.
And then I showed him a couple of times where he did do it, but why he was late showed him, like if you look at that winger and where he's looking, he can't see you where you are. You're just a step too late. If you are one step ahead, he sees you that puck's your. [00:29:00] Cool story. Getting to the point, the cool story is, so we did video review that morning.
I showed him the clips of the activation. I showed him offensive blue line, how he wasn't getting involved, how he wasn't reading gaps. And he plays his former team that night. And in the first period alone, he led the rush four times by activating from the net, getting the puck, making plays over the blue line.
And I think he touched the puck 10 or 12 times in the offense zone that night. So that was kind of my light bulb moment. So that got me really excited. Seeing just again, the impact where a lot of the game, right, A lot of people say like even the best players only have the puck on their stick for a minute a game.
So a lot of the work I do is, what are you doing off the puck? How can you get the puck more? How can you support a play better? How can you put yourself in the offense zone to even just, you might not even touch the puck, but we know our team's shooting. How can you put yourself in a route that would help your team get the rebound or recover the puck and stay on offense?
So it's that was the real light bulb moment. And again, just seeing how quickly you [00:30:00] could impact a player that way, right? And I'd worked with this guy for five or six years and put him through more old school methods of power skating and stick handling. And I never had a bigger impact than that one day of just using data, really understanding his game from an analytical level, and that that's what took off.
So, kind of mention what you said, two things I'm usually looking for in a player every time I do it is either a high frequency, low success rate, right? Because there's potential to have a big impact there. So if, if, let's say, you know, this player was a defenseman. Every defenseman's gonna retrieve a lot of puck during a game, right?
So if he's getting 10 retrievals, but I'll break it down even to like, areas of the ice. I break the ice into 52 locations. So I'll look for, is it maybe on the left side of the net? He's really struggling with making an exit play, make, making a good first play on the puck, on his retrieval, right? I'll show him and, and dive into that [00:31:00] and analyze why are we not having success?
And if you can clean that up again, if it's happening 10 times a night and he goes from a 25% to a 60% success rate, that's gonna have a big impact. And actually what he's doing in a game, not just focusing on generic stick handling or passing and assume that's just gonna show up to that game situation.
So I look at the game situation first and then kind of reverse engineer, what are the details, what are the skills that need to go into having su success in that? And then the second thing I look for is something that should happen at a high frequency but is not. So a, an easy example would be the, the same guy I was mentioning, right?
Offenses, own puck touches. Obviously every player wants to have a high rate of that. And if it's, if it's one and a half per game, obviously there's something missing. And it's probably not a skill thing or, or a skating problem, it's an IQ and reading reading how to be available. So [00:32:00] that's the second thing I look for.
So I use analytics to build a, me, like a model for that player, and then I'm always updating that and then diving into kind of what are the biggest red flags and how can we approach developing those either through video or on ice work.
Jason Jacobs: So when you are assessing a player for the first time, is it and you're manually going through, or it sounds like you've got some software now that does it, which we should also talk about, but but when you're going through are the categories the same of what you track for every player and then you, and then you just look for what jumps out?
Or, or do you actually track different things for different players?
Brett Leonard: question. So I, yes, I do track different things. I have a kind of a generic, generic analytic call it, uh, a code window. So I code all the, all the things we're talking about here. And, and pretty much anything you can think of. I track. So I puck touch, where on the ice they get it, what number in the sequence they get it, [00:33:00] what's the, is it a success or a fail?
Do they improve or degrade the play? You know, what pass do they make out of it? I track all their shots, shot locations, again, even puck support gaps, defensive battles, anything you can think of. I pretty much track. So I have kind of a generic one to start a player. So to answer your question, anytime a new player is interested, I say, Hey, let's do a three game analysis and see what you think and go from there.
So I'll track all this data. then, just like I mentioned before, kind of look for the red flags, go in and analyze those. Sometimes I go down the path and it's not really an issue. It's it might be, obviously there's five players out on the ice together. Sometimes I, I go down a what seems to be a problem from a data standpoint, and really they're making good plays and other guys are, are making it a fail right now.
So I won't waste my time on that. But ultimately I'm looking for one to two key areas every time I meet with a player that are gonna give them their [00:34:00] biggest jump in development. So I'll, I'll do that data and then I'll meet with the player. I think a lot of players enjoy the data these days where it gives them insight into, they don't realize they touch the puck on their backhand maybe 15 times in the offenses zone per game.
And they don't, and they don't even realize that, or they didn't realize they get most of their shots from the same location or whatever it may be. So I, I present to them some of the data when I first meet with them, just to give them kind of a, again, an insight into what their game currently looks like, and then I'll show 'em those one to two key areas of where they need their biggest development.
And then if they become a long-term client of mine, then I start to build more personal metrics. So every player's different, I'll start to add to those game situations that I'm tagging personalized stuff. If it's, you know, a big power forward, I might have extra. Data inside of like their play below the dots and how many slot [00:35:00] passes they're making, and how many times could they create seals down low and protect the puck to create an advantage if it's, an offensive defenseman.
You know, maybe there's more, you know, rush activation and zone entry metrics for them. So every player starts to get personalized the longer they work with me and I'm, and I'm always learning, I'm learning from them. I'm, I'm constantly studying the game, studying, people in the industry and getting new ideas and, and always trying things.
And it's an ever growing kind of database of, of what I track. And then it's, it's, it gets more and more based on that player's assets. The longer I work with them, the more I understand them, um, and, and can think, how can we leverage what they're best at inside the game?
Jason Jacobs: You mentioned that starting out it was a very manual process. How has that evolved over time and and how much manual, just grunt counting [00:36:00] and stuff do you find that you're doing these days?
Brett Leonard: Yeah, so with, with the sports code software, like it's still manual, I have to enter, but the nice part is, is when how I set it up, one, it, it clips the instance right away. So it puts them in clean video files to present to the player quickly. And it also tracks the numbers. So I just have to click it once and it will tag, you know, again, where that is on the ice what the play result was, all that.
So then I can, I can, uh. Just open a, a matrix of all their numbers and then sure. From there I have to do some calculations and, and, you know, simple stuff to put together. Now there's some newer stuff out there like Sport Logic that will do a lot of this for you. Some of the data, like it's not gonna, it's not gonna track how many times were you in the [00:37:00] wrong spot, right?
So there's still gonna be an element that even if I use Sport Logic to potentially speed up getting to some areas, I'm still gonna have to manually go in there and track some of the data I need. 'cause that, you know, for example, like Sport Logic will show you all your offenses on passes and how many were East West, how many were north or south, how many were to the slot, how many were successful.
So that's a great starting point. Might help me dive into a player quicker, but then I still gotta go in and look at, okay, he made a, a. A south pass. So he made a play, let's say, from the corner up to the strong side defenseman. I'm gonna have to go through and watch all those and track how many could he have maybe passed it to the slot instead, which is a more valuable puck than just, going up to the strong side point.
So there's definitely some resources out there that are, are speeding up the process for me. But ultimately there are some small details that I [00:38:00] think, would be really tough to automate. If you're looking at, okay, how's the guy, maybe he's just out of position, like there's no tracking number to say, Hey, you're out of position in this play, and it's flagged into a video file or a data point, if that makes sense.
Jason Jacobs: Is this type of data driven? Approach commonplace in the hockey world today. And, and relatedly, does it tend to exist more on the player development side or recruiting, scouting? Like where, yeah. So is it commonplace and where does it exist?
Brett Leonard: I think ultimately, I think it's mostly used for scouting. I think from what I gather and talking to people, I think scouts use that data to compare players all the time. Whether it's NHL Scouts for the draft, whether it's college coaches looking at junior leagues and trying to compare guys. 'cause [00:39:00] everyone's only got so much time in the day. And it, it's a great starting point to look at guys and just, and especially if you're like, Hey, we, we, we really need a, a first line center here. What do we value in a center? And now let's pull up four guys we're talking to and let's see, you know, how are their face off stats?
How are their defensive plays? Or let me get more specific. Maybe they're looking for more of a defensive center, right? There's defensive metrics on there where they can look at and see which guy analytically is stronger defensively and on face offs. And that might be what they're looking for. So I think it's really used well in terms of speeding up and, and narrowing your focus on players.
And then obviously whether you go live and see them, whether you watch video on them, right? Obviously you're still gonna analyze the player and see if it's the right fit or if there's any, you know, red flags in their game. You, the data might not tell you. I think there's some people using it in player development.
I think this is the future of player development where [00:40:00] again, you use that data to speed up how you help a player. And that goes back to exactly what I do, right? Like I have, an American League forward, I'm, who's out right now and, and can't train and we're meeting once a week going through a chunk of his playoff games and most recent games.
And we're going through and looking at him as a player, what his strengths are. He's trying to make a jump to the NHL level and we're looking at things like, how can we increase his slot passing per game? How can we increase how many shots he's getting from the slot, right? So that, that data and having it, it can help you short.
'cause the data also comes with video clips. So you can, any data they track, you can go watch a playlist quickly of those situations. So then that really helps you speed up. Instead of scrubbing through 20 games, you can get 50 games worth of a certain situation so that again, it's gonna speed up and make it a lot more [00:41:00] efficient how you can get to what that player needs.
In terms to improve that, that situation?
Jason Jacobs: You mentioned Darrel RIE as an early inspiration. Do you have a peer group or are there others that are in your trade that have similar philosophy with their own stamp on it that you convene with regularly and respect? Or, or are you kind of on an island with with this stuff?
Brett Leonard: Honestly, bit of an island, especially up until about a year ago I find a lot of value in my players and the more access I've gotten to higher level players, I think I learn as much from them as they do for me. So it's not peers, but I, I, I do think there's a lot of value in, in constantly talking to your players.
You know, a lot of video sessions, we spend a lot of time just again, talking and, and floating different ideas or, or talk about a different player or, just different things like that. So that's been super helpful. Now the last, about a year [00:42:00] ago. So I've had, like I mentioned, I worked for Merrimack College.
I do their player development and skills. And I got that job last year was my first year, but I had a couple of their, their higher end players that I'd worked with privately for a couple years were doing well in improving every year. And, and the coach kind of found out about me and, and gave me a call and asked if I wanted to do it from the team side.
So the coaches here have been great and that, you know, I joke with one of 'em that like, I've missed this for the last few years. I do think there's value in having a peer group. So the coaches here has been a fun kind of change where I am bouncing ideas off of, or I'm challenging what, what they're doing for, practices and, and just having a, a group of high level coaches to, to talk through has, has been awesome.
But up until that point it was really just me and my players kinda on an island. It's just kind of my personality and how I've done things up until now, but. Yeah
Jason Jacobs: you, I mean, you've said a couple things that I wanna push on and, and tie [00:43:00] together. 'cause one is over time your practice has gotten more and more narrow. And I get why that that you've gone, instead of going broad, you're going deep. And in order to go deep, there's only gonna be certain people that like.
Care enough to go that deep, essentially. Right. So that all makes good sense to me. But you've also talked about how you've thought about how to package what's in your brain to make it more accessible to more people, right. Which is in the opposite direction to where your practice has been going.
So, what's been driving you to think about that accessibility piece? And and yeah, so, so yeah, what's been driving you to think about it? What would it take to make it more accessible? And and wouldn't that make your practice less valuable? Right? So how do you, how do you think about that?
Because you want to, you want the collective good, but not at, you know, not at the expense of your own self-interest. So just talk, maybe touch on all of that.
Brett Leonard: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like you said, there's a very limited group of players I can work with because of how deep the work [00:44:00] goes, that obviously there's only so much time. But I do have a passion and I think it stems from that Vermont roots. And, and again my start where I wanted to help as many players as I could, and that makes me think about it, is again, there's only a certain level of player financial situation to be able to afford and have access to people like me.
So it's, you know, I don't think it'd be hard to create something, I guess, that would fully replicate it. But is there something, or even again, for a younger player or maybe not as strong of a player yet, is there something you can provide them that at least gets them better than what they have now? And that's kind of what I, I've struggled with, is how to reach out to more people, be connected to more people, help more people or even help more coaches improve their philosophy so that they're having bigger impacts through the players.
They have. Um, has been a passion of mine. Just how to go about that is, is [00:45:00] really, where I, I'm stuck at and, and with, time constraints and stuff, you know, it's definitely a passion I'm thinking about, but what that looks like is still yet to be kinda figured out.
Jason Jacobs: Well, this is, I mean, one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you, so coming in, look, I grew up playing hockey and then I've been getting more and more into hockey every year as a hockey dad. But like, I feel like in some ways I'm learning the game for the first time now, and some of that is because I didn't play at the most competitive levels with the best, training and resources and systems around me.
Some of it is that even the resources that were there. I wasn't dialed in enough to take advantage of them and take 'em seriously. Right. And then some of that is that things have changed so much. Right. And the game is so much more sophisticated today, we just kn know a lot more, but I feel like I stumbled into your corner of the game.
And without knowing it I like, it's just so intuitive. It makes so much sense to me. But at the same time, I feel like I accidentally stumbled into a corner that not a lot of people seem to [00:46:00] know about or, or are talking about. Right. But it's so intuitive makes so much sense to me. And so on the one hand I'm like crap, I want my kid to get that right.
And then it's like, well, I'm sure it's prohibitively expensive. It's like, I'm in a fortunate position that maybe at least I could consider it and that, you know, but but then I think about, well, shit like that doesn't mean, let's say my kid did it and got way better. Like that doesn't mean he's better than these other kids.
It means that he has more access. Right. Because like. Because I have a wallet, right? And that's not fair, right? And so it's like, well, how do you package that in a way that more kids could get access to? That's kind of what I'm thinking about digitally, right? Um, and like you, I don't have answers, but like, I'm so excited to be a student of this and get inside, the brains of practitioners like you that are on the bleeding edge more to figure out how to package it in a way that could get it in the hands of, of more kids.
And I like you. I don't have answers, but that's why, what you just said is like kinda why I am getting up every day and doing what I'm doing to, to try to figure it out.
Brett Leonard: Yeah, and, and my philosophy is again, evolved [00:47:00] dramatically. I think the toughest challenge right now is, especially with social media and stuff, is it's, it's so easy to just throw obstacles on the ice, do crazy cool ten second, like clips of toe dragging around, you know, a fake defender or jumping over a pad and high speed and the kids sweating and, and flying all around and it looks great.
And there's lots of coaches out there that just steal these drills and, and then add their own little pieces. But how is the player learning? I've found the biggest piece missing is the IQ and, and the player actually reading the game, reading the space, reading the situation, talk to my players all the time.
One of the biggest IQ things is reading the conditions of the puck. Does your teammate have it with time and space where I can, I can get open on the backside of the ice or in the slot because he has the ability, is he on his forehand or his backend? Guy's on his [00:48:00] forehand, much more likely he's gonna make a better pass than if he's on his back end.
I don't care how good you are, everyone's better at making a play on their forehand. Little details like that, that can make a huge difference in how you get open, how you read, but you hear all the t like, yeah, there's, there's three sets of skills. There's your iq, there's skating, and then your hands in stick skill, right?
And, and you'll only go as far as the bottom ceiling of one of those aspects. But, so too many players, what they do is they train in isolation and they get great skating. They get great, you know, hands and shooting and all that, but they have no idea how to transfer it to a game. They have no idea to u how to use it in a competitive advantage.
I've played with a lot of guys like this. I've started off, you know, as clients with players like this that again, can skate at an NHL level can handle the puck better than most NHL players, but they're not even close to the NHL level because they have no idea of how to re transition, how to. Support a puck.
How [00:49:00] to, scan well enough to make big positive plays with little time and space. Alright, so I think the missing piece and then go, going back to what we're talking about in terms of how could you find a way to help this, it goes back to the beginning of conversation where I think a kid would get more value playing three on three with his buddies and being left alone than to go stick handle through obstacles for an hour, work hard and have no clue how to, to use that.
Go back to like my son and, and the one V one, V one. I've seen tremendous progress just by letting them play that and, and just having real defenders and real sit a real game structure that they'll learn what works and what doesn't. Is that the best? Am I saying that's the only thing we need to do and, and everyone just plays on a pond all year and then they're better?
No, there's better than that, but I, I think at least from a foundation, it's gotta get back to how do you create. Games for the players to develop. I think the skill [00:50:00] lies inside the task. Too many player, too many coaches focus on technique and then a puck bounces or a defender is challenging you from a different angle or whatever.
Or your support's a little bit different. Now your technique to solve that problem is gonna be different. There's no perfect technique and too many people focus on the technique first and then hope that just somehow perfects you in a game where really, I think it's the opposite where you put players in situations and then you might coach or fix a technique or give them varying ability to express technique.
But really it's, I talk to my players all the time. It's start to think of the game as you're just solving problems out there and you'll start to have more success. There's no perfect way to do anything.
Jason Jacobs: It makes me think that that the same way there's been this rise of, of skills instruction, right? I don't even know what you call this, but like there could be a rise in this form of [00:51:00] skills instruction where it is more structured free play essentially, or I, I don't even know what you call it, but but the, you know, it's not, you know, it's not pond, and it's not, stick handle through a million cones and do the limbo, right? It's, uh, it's, you know, like that one V one V one for example but like with actually some structure in a game plan, but fostering these environments that push on all those elements that you mentioned, like, you know, there isn't a lot of it, but I know that if there was, like, I would sign my kid up and he would be juiced to go, like he's juiced to go to the cones, right?
And this would be way better than the cones, right?
Brett Leonard: Yeah. The players definitely enjoy it. Typically more it's they get to play and actually feel like they're in a game and competing, and that's ultimately, growing that passion for the game. I, I think it, it's more enjoyable for the player and much more valuable. Give you like an example, so for.
Yeah, like my pro clients, they all work up with [00:52:00] me on video, so I understand their game. I've gone through the whole season with them, what, what they're doing well, what, what they need to improve in the off season. And then they all have personal slots with me to work on their specific game.
And yes, we might fix a technique or we might try to add some pieces, but they always understand and know that even though we're doing some of this individual skill work, we're still going to put it in a way where they're working on it in the game situation. We talk through like when and why you would use this versus a different strategy.
So it, it's still always tied back to the game. But majority of their skates in the summer are inside the group. So all of them have their individual plans, but they come together, six to 10 of 'em in three to four group skates a week. And then they all know specifically, hey, like I want to be working on this stuff.
I'm out there with them. I can obviously remind them of their individual stuff, but we do more of this [00:53:00] game-like structure where they can personally add what they're trying to work on. But also every session we, we pick a game situation theme and develop that. So I'll start with, I'll give you an example of, today I had five, five pro guys on the ice and we were working on, I think one problem, again, you could teach us the youth kids.
I've done it with young kids before. I think there's an over support of perimeter play. So players tend to just jump to walls, be an easy outlet, and yeah, they might get the puck some, but we haven't created an advantage for moving the puck from say, the half wall down to the corner or from the half wall up to the point, the whole name of the game is to get that puck from the wall. Into the slot area to create scoring chances, right? So we did this dot release sequence. So I put 'em in a three on two to start where their objective was to the three guys. One guy had to have a puck on the wall, move it inside to a guy supporting inside the dot, and then [00:54:00] that guy would try to find a backside open guy for a shot and they were terrible at it for the first five, 10 minutes.
I do that as kind of their quiz. So I put 'em in a game situation and then it's an open book from where I go from there. So it's you throw 'em the quiz and then whatever is the most common wrong answer we start to work on and then isolate. But again, I still try to make it as game-like as possible. So they were struggling with they, they'd get to the puck, they'd turn their back, they'd lose their vision in the middle of the ice, and then the defender would close their space and they were at bad angles to see, see the middle of the ice, bad angles to even access with a pass, the middle of the ice.
So then we broke it down to a, a quick little two on one drill where I'd chip a puck in the corner. The player was not allowed to turn their back, so they had to keep what's called perpendicular shoulder. So they'd get to the puck, they'd have to stay open. They'd read that d coming and they'd make a, a play to a slot player for a shot.
So now they started [00:55:00] playing around with different techniques, and again, there's, I show 'em some solutions of how they could do it, but every player's a little bit different, right? So they, they explore their own ways to, again, have success from moving a puck under pressure from the wall into the middle of the ice without turning their back.
Then we went into a three-on-one version where I, I said, the player with the puck can't skate. So the player was challenged. So instead of like getting the puck starting to turn, so many players are, are more worried about getting the puck and getting moving before they even worry about looking to see if there's an open play.
So I made the, I added the constraint of you can't move with the puck. And it opened everything up. All of a sudden now, instead of rushing to the puck, trying to turn, now they were pre scanning more, they were doing some of the skill work on the slides. They were seeing the ice and their success rate jumped from maybe 10, 20% to probably 80%.
So we did that three versus one. Then we, then we made it three on two. Same thing. Way better success [00:56:00] rate, even three versus two with the no skating rule versus when they played it three on one. Then I brought it back live again, where they, they finished with the original three on two with no rules, but then all of a sudden they were just naturally doing, you know, a lot of these slides and staying open and not worrying about over moving with the puck and just seeing the play.
And it, it was gold. It was an awesome day. So that's how I think when you're talking about group environment, it's put 'em in a game situation that actually happens. Make sure you're very careful where you don't wanna like create. A fake environment where it's, they're gonna get habits, but always be ready to adapt.
I, I, I've, I've learned quickly that like I've set up some games before where I think it's gonna lead me down this path and I'm totally wrong. Or sometimes, like the game quickly, there's a way to cheat it or knock at the outcome you're looking for, and you have to blow it up, throw it out the window, and, and try something else.
So I think that's where real [00:57:00] development lies. And you're, you're constantly, you know, talking to these players and teaching 'em. But if you, if you approach them with a task to be successful at, that's real development, that's gonna transfer to a game. And again, every player's different. The six foot three guy is different than the five foot 10 guy, the right shot guy versus the left.
Like it's all how they get the p it's different. So instead of worrying about like, let's spend 30 minutes. Picking up a rim the perfect way. It's no. Put 'em in a game situation where they might have to constantly handle rims, see how they do, and now be ready to help them find better solutions to ultimately, again, in this case it was getting the puck to the inside of the ice and create a scoring chance.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, no, the, this stuff is gold and I'm sold, and I mean, we could almost do another whole, I know you've, you've gotta bounce, but we, we could almost do another session where it's like we we actually like get it, you know, like put up the video and get into real [00:58:00] scenarios
Brett Leonard: Oh yeah.
Jason Jacobs: uh. Yeah, I mean, that, that is, you know, you talked about how to get what's in your head out.
Like I actually have some ideas for that. But but Brett I know we're, we're up on time. Thanks so much for coming on. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did, or do you have any parting words for listeners? I.
Brett Leonard: Yeah. Uh, I mean my, again, my biggest thing, and again, I started in the path of obstacles on the ice and, and power. Power skate one day and then stick handle like crazy the next day and then maybe play some small games the third day and see if it all transfers. And from trial and error, I learned, sure.
Do players get better? Is ice time gonna make 'em better? Yes. It's not to say they won't get something, but when you're talking about real elite players, sometimes some of that stuff can be detrimental and, and they're learning to do stuff that's not gonna work in a game and actually bring their development backwards.
So if there was one kind of underlying message is the more you can put players in situations to, to get reps get the puck [00:59:00] touches in real game environments, the better. And if that's, if you're a coach, I. And, and you're knowledgeable, great. You can start to kind of do the kind of stuff I do. If I didn't have a background or I didn't know any of this, then the best thing would be to keep it as as simple as possible.
And again, a lot of times with the younger kids, I just let them play and they, they do figure it out and they kind of self-organized to find solutions. But ultimately it's a game I like to look at, at the game as it's a game of chess and strategy and problem solving. And the more you can just focus your development on problem solving, putting yourself in those type of situations, I think the more you're gonna develop and you're gonna see results in the game versus just working on technical stuff nonstop and hope that all of a sudden shows up to.
Scoring more goals and getting more slot chances and getting more assists and, and all that. So the more you can [01:00:00] gamify stuff with a purpose, the better off you're gonna be in terms of developing.
Jason Jacobs: I, I feel like the episode had a weaving path early on because IFI, I felt remiss to not talk about your coming up in the game because one, because it's an awesome story, but two be because it, it is relevant context to getting into this stuff, but like, this stuff is the gold, right? I feel like, I feel like there could be a whole, like you could double click on that and just go get, you know, really geek out.
But, um, I'm so grateful for you coming on. I think this is gonna be eyeopening to, to a lot of people. It was for me. And, uh, see you around the rinks.
Brett Leonard: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me.
Jason Jacobs: Thank you for tuning in to the next, next. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did and you haven't already, you can subscribe from your favorite podcast player, whether it's Apple, Spotify, or any of the others. We also send a newsletter every week on the journey itself. The new content that we publish, the questions that we're wrestling with, [01:01:00] how the platform itself is coming along, that we're planning to build for player development, and where we could use some help.
And you can find that at the next next.substack.com. Thanks a lot and see you soon.