In this episode of The Next Next, host Jason Jacobs talks with Ted Sullivan, a former minor league pitcher, co-founder of Game Changer, and Chief Growth Officer at IMG Academy. They explore Ted's journey from sports to sports tech, the development of Game Changer, the operation and impact of IMG Academy, philosophical discussions on parenting, and the current state of youth sports. Jason shares his own aspirations in youth sports tech, aiming to balance professional pursuits with family life, while Ted reflects on his future career steps.
From Baseball to Business: Exploring Youth Sports Tech with Ted Sullivan In this episode of 'The Next Next,' host Jason Jacobs speaks with Ted Sullivan, co-founder and former CEO of Game Changer, a youth sports scorekeeping app. Sullivan shares his journey from playing minor league baseball to entering the sports tech industry. The conversation covers the development and growth of Game Changer, its acquisition by Dick's Sporting Goods, and Sullivan's subsequent role as Chief Growth Officer at IMG Academy. The discussion also delves into philosophical topics such as parenting, work-life balance, and the future of youth sports. Jacobs updates listeners on his current venture into youth sports technology, inspired by the intersection of sports and digital tools to build a business that serves kids and families while maintaining personal well-being.
00:00 Introduction to Today's Guest: Ted Sullivan
00:31 Ted Sullivan's Career Journey
01:17 Philosophical Insights on Parenting and Youth Sports
03:26 Ted's Entrepreneurial Ventures
07:04 The Role of Sports in Entrepreneurship
10:08 Challenges in Modern Youth Sports
15:36 Balancing Fun and Competition in Youth Sports
24:29 IMG Academy: Inside Look
31:06 Digital Expansion of IMG Academy
35:07 IMG Academy Plus: Expanding Access to Student Athletes
35:25 NCSA: The World's Largest Recruiting Platform
36:55 The Growth and Impact of IMG Academy Plus
38:03 Exploring Game Changer and Personal Reflections
39:13 Building a Youth Sports Technology Endeavor
45:05 Challenges and Opportunities in Youth Sports
52:49 Game Changer: Origin and Evolution
59:40 Reflections and Future Plans
01:02:20 Conclusion and Podcast Information
Jason Jacobs: [00:00:00] On today's episode of The Next Next, our guest is Ted Sullivan. Now, I was excited for this one because Ted is a similar age to me and he played baseball in college. He was a minor league pitcher for the Indians. He got his MBA around the same time I did, and then. Like me, he then headed into sports tech.
He was the co-founder and CEO of Game Changer, where he hatched a youth sports Scorekeeping and live update app that scaled to 250,000 teams and ubiquity in baseball and softball before being acquired by Dick's Sporting Goods. He then went on for a couple years, uh, at Dick's as SVP and CEO of Game Changer within Dick's.
Then he took some time off and, uh, found himself at IMG Academy where he [00:01:00] spent the last four years as Chief Growth officer there. And of course, IMG Academy is pretty relevant in the youth sports world in terms of working with, uh, very competitive youth sports athletes and providing exceptional training opportunities and educational opportunities.
So. We had a lot to talk about and I thought that I was bringing Ted on to talk about sports tech and youth sports, and we talked about some of that, but we also got into more philosophical stuff around parenting, around balance, around what's important, uh, around life as an entrepreneur. Um, and we also talk about the state of youth sports in general.
What is going well with it. What some of the issues with it might be, where it should head directionally and where some of the biggest opportunities are. At any rate, I greatly enjoyed this one, and I hope you do as well. But before we get [00:02:00] started.
I'm Jason Jacobs, and this is The Next Next. It's not really a show, it's more of a learning journey to explore how founders can build ambitious companies while being present for family and not compromising flexibility and control, and also how emerging AI tools can assist with that. Each week we bring on guests who are at the tip of the spear on redefining how ambitious companies get built, and selfishly the goal is for this to help me better understand how to do that myself.
While bringing all of you along for the ride, not sure where this is gonna go, but it's gonna be fun.
Okay. Ted Sullivan, welcome to the show.
Ted Sullivan: Hey, it's great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me.
Jason Jacobs: Great to have you. Yeah I'm real excited for this one. I, yeah, you you've been in eSports for quite a while as an entrepreneur. You are heading out of U Sports [00:03:00] just as I am returning to sports and maybe entering u sports for the first time. So there's a bunch to talk about there.
And also we're just similar age and demographic. I did not play minor league baseball. Like you, my, my hockey career washed up after a year and two games of division three. But I was oh 3, 0 5 NBA and you were oh four to oh six it looks and similar life stages too.
So I think we just have a lot to talk about.
Ted Sullivan: A lot of overlap and I look forward to it.
Jason Jacobs: For starters, maybe just frame Ted, for us. I I know that's super open-ended, but just if as you think about yourself and who you are professionally, how would you describe it?
Ted Sullivan: Yeah. First and foremost, I think for myself outside of my work, and so maybe I'll start there, which
Jason Jacobs: Great.
Ted Sullivan: I'm a husband and dad and I live in lower Manhattan. I
Jason Jacobs: And re And remind me, Ted, how Yeah. How old are your kids?
Ted Sullivan: Yeah, I have a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old, almost 13 and
Jason Jacobs: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. And that's another thing we [00:04:00] have in common is that our kids are almost exactly the same age. Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah. I have almost have a teenage girl, so I'm staring that down.
But she's lovely and I have No, no worries. And then I have an almost 11-year-old boy. and yeah, we live in lower Manhattan. I was born and raised in Washington DC and never in a million years would've thought I'd be in New York City for almost 20 years and raising a family here. But here we are and we love it.
Career wise, my career has really been at the intersection of sports and technology, and I'd say with entrepreneurship as a big pillar of that as well, although not exclusively. And in fact, I just left op an opportunity, amazing four year opportunity at IMG Academy which obviously is a, good sized business, has been around for a while.
But I've done a few startups and two of which in the youth sports market. So I've got the scars the scars to prove it
Jason Jacobs: It are. Is [00:05:00] that the second startup? Is that the camps? Is that
Ted Sullivan: actually,
Jason Jacobs: or.
Ted Sullivan: in chronological order. The first one was the camp started. Yeah. Started Head First Camps with my brother Brendan. When I was still in college actually. We then both became minor league ball players and it was an off season gig. Of course. We had every confidence. We were on our way to the big leagues. And this was just to make a few bucks along the way. The big leagues never happened and really that business has thrived to my brother's credit now, 30 years later based in DC and runs coaching and camps and clinics, some in sports, but also has divisions that are multi-activity camps, big. Big multi-activity summer day camps where we take out, take over a whole campus of a school in the DC area, so we could talk about that business if it's of interest. I know you're looking at the instruction, sort of youth sports instruction and maybe there's relevant [00:06:00] tidbits there. I then, went on and did some other things, got my MBA as you mentioned, and then started a company called Game Changer and Game Changer from about 2009 2010, when it was founded to 2016, acquired by Dick's Sporting Goods. And I stayed another two years till 2018, so it was like a good, nearly a decade all in of time spent doing game changer.
Jason Jacobs: Huh And it's funny, I hadn't really heard of Game Changer, but it's because I didn't ha, I didn't have a kid who played any of the sports and then or any of the sports that you guys serve. And then my son did baseball for a hot minute last season and I got to know game Changer. And he's already out of baseball yeah not the sport for him.
Ted Sullivan: game changer for many years was fully in what we would call the diamond sports baseball and softball. It is expanded since then, post acquisition and has while the baseball and softball is really where it's like the dominant market for game changer. It does have [00:07:00] other tools and feature sets for other sports.
Now
Jason Jacobs: Huh. Normally when we do these episodes, it's tell me about your entrepreneurial journey. And so how did Game Changer get started and how, we could spend the whole episode just talking about that stuff, but in this particular case, there's certain things I'm just dying to talk about and I wanna make sure we have time for 'em.
So I might actually just yeah, just skip to the good stuff.
Ted Sullivan: got some questions for you, so you're not off the hook in this one. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fire some back
Jason Jacobs: Yeah,
Ted Sullivan: the journey that you're on digging into the youth sports tech world and I'd love to nerd out on that for a little bit.
Jason Jacobs: I would love to as well. So my first question, and you might not. Expect this one. But so here I am an entrepreneur, and here you are an entrepreneur. And and in entrepreneurship it is like in a world where you're like chy out efficiencies and just trying to get a little bit of alpha from the crowded pack, from hard work.
To me, that sports, right? Is sports is not reinventing anything. It's okay, how do I improve my endurance? How do I improve [00:08:00] my strength? How do I improve my mobility? How do I eat better? How do I get enough rest? How do I do repetition with, each different component of the game?
How do I get more team play? How do, it's it's all laid out and it's just up to you. Do you do the work or not? Entrepreneurship's the opposite, right? Where like you you only have as much, it's you're dreaming it up almost, and so like it's entirely outside of the box versus sports is entirely inside of the box.
So I guess my first question is as an athlete who became an entrepreneur, do does sports actually help with that path? Or in some ways does, is it a hindrance and a barrier to overcome?
Ted Sullivan: it's, it's such a great question and I'm pretty convinced it helped and it helps, but maybe because I am so convinced that being that my experience as a, as an athlete. Help in almost everything that I do. [00:09:00] And it's the, for all the cliched reasons that are actually real, I'm just a big believer that sports are a great teacher, maybe the best teacher of life's most important lessons. And things like teamwork and leadership and executing under pressure and dealing with failure. all of those things are to the, really the career journey. But I think they're accentuated in the entrepreneurial journey. And so there's no doubt in my mind that it certainly has helped me.
And I'd like to think that most. former athletes are gonna be really well prepared going into their careers whether they choose an entrepreneurship path or not. I think that their sports experience in particular, I think team sports experience, given that entrepreneurship often, unless you're just a solo entrepreneur, it ends up being a team [00:10:00] sport. Sport. And so I'm really a believer that team sports experience is a great teacher for for entrepreneurship.
Jason Jacobs: I'm gonna press on that a little bit because growing up, I think the way that we grew up with sports, I believe that, right? Where it's like a large amount of time is just you out on the playground with your buddies. And if if there's probably not a lot of. People pushing on you.
And granted, everyone grew up different, but I think sports in general was a lot more hands off growing up than it has become today. And if you look at today it's almost like every little athlete is like a little Britney Spears with all their handlers.
Ted Sullivan: Yes.
Jason Jacobs: And so what I wonder is is it almost I don't know, I'm coming up with all these analogies, but like Brooks from Shushing Redemption where he gets released from prison, and he like, he just wants to go back to all the structure where he didn't have to think and he just got up and everything was laid out for him.
And he doesn't know how to function in the world. Is that the same for athletes when they get out of whenever the ride is done and they try to figure out the real world and all their handlers aren't around [00:11:00] anymore.
Ted Sullivan: I think it's a great point. I do think that's a factor. I don't know if that's unique to sports. Maybe it's that the Britney called the Britney Spears factor of the surrounded by handlers, 10, 10, 9, 10, 11 year olds surrounded by private coaches and all of that, that there ends up being, there's like the real world eventually hits and that's not I. That's not there. And I didn't know if we were gonna go into kind of parenting, parenting guidance here, and I'm no expert by any
Jason Jacobs: I, I.
Ted Sullivan: What I do deeply believe in is having young athletes own their own youth sports experience. So I believe very much against the the Britney Spears experience as if to you to steal your language there and listen that maybe people that know me would say I'm being hypocritical because I'm certainly supporting my kids in what they wanna do. That said I'm, often at [00:12:00] games as far away as I can be from from the game. I'm not packing or carrying my kids' bag. I'm not, you go down the line. There's a lot of. Of places that you see where the line between parent and young athletes are blurring. And that's actually not good for the young athlete at all because they don't feel like they, they own their youth sports experience. And so to me, think to the extent that parents can let go, and it's not just in sports, probably in all activities, that's the kid is going to be better off learning how to execute in the world, whether it's on the field or off. It's gonna make them better off when life eventually. hard and they need to fend for themselves.
One, one little anecdote, Jason, that you'll maybe appreciate, speaking of the carrying the bags, is that my brother and I always joke when we were in the early days, decades ago when we were running our camps, we'd run clinics and things like this. This was in baseball where we expanded into [00:13:00] other sports over time, but in baseball, we always joke that you could tell what if it was a new set of 30 kids showing up for a new clinic. You could tell which kids were gonna be like kind of the real gamers, the real hard nosed sort of better players, tougher players, the kids you really wanted on your team. And there was one way to tell, and you could tell in the first 10 seconds you saw them and it was when they got out of the Volvo, if the kid was carrying the bag, the equipment bag, that kid was gonna be, I. ass kicker of a kid. And if mom was carrying or dad was carrying the bag, then you could almost count on writing off that kid as the one that you forgot his glove and blamed mom and left the glove of the field when he left because mom packed it on the way there. So anyway, that's my, I'll get off my parenting, parenting rant, but I think it's a good lesson learned.
Jason Jacobs: [00:14:00] Yeah. And I think it's, it's confusing as a parent. And by the way, this does dovetail into professional given how much time you spent working in it and how much time I'm potentially planning to spend working in it. Because at the end of the day it's important, I know it's important to you and it's also important to me to feel proud of your work.
And feel like it's got deep purpose to it. And so the day I, if I ever felt like I was doing work that was putting profit ahead of what's right,
Ted Sullivan: yeah.
Jason Jacobs: I wouldn't be okay with that. And so I think back to the parenting, it's if I'm gonna go into youth sports, like these are the, it's not just is there a business and what's the market size?
And, it's is this going to help or is this just going to, at minimum profit off of and at worse accentuate the problem. And so coming back around it's confusing as a parent because. The schools are getting more competitive. The sports are getting more competitive.
And so you want to keep the rails your kid, like you wanna keep the train on the tracks for your kid or with your kid. And the kid isn't equipped [00:15:00] at the early ages to, it would be unrealistic to expect them to even know what the tracks are, let alone. And so you don't want them to look back later and it's man, I wish I got parented a little harder.
But at the same time, they need to learn how to do it themselves. And part of learning how to do it themselves is to like, let them make mistakes. And so how do you manage that? And also how do you manage that in this hyper competitive and getting more competitive world?
Ted Sullivan: It's a real challenge and I'm not saying that I'm managing it appropriately. I think maybe the key is have a few fundamentals that are always front and center. One is that the kid has to be having fun. If the kid isn't having fun, nothing they're not gonna be willing to work hard enough to be really good at that sport anyway.
So you just gotta make sure it's fun the kid. Number two is, I believe, deeply in. and playing lots of sports. I do not think that sports specialization for younger kids is [00:16:00] right. Both from like a health and wellness but also a fun perspective. I think kids get burned out just like any other human gets burned out doing the same thing over and over again. Then third is what I mentioned before, which is, letting it be their experience. I think I was really, and granted it was different times when I was growing up. I was very lucky in that both of my parents obviously cared deeply about their three kids who were all student athletes, but really didn't know all that much about sports didn't, couldn't coach us at really in baseball or basketball.
And so let other coaches do that job and would be there supporting us, but it was never, there were never blurry lines. Between of whose experience was it the kids' experience or the parents' experience? And I think that was more common back then, of course. But I really try to channel the way my parents were, which is really supportive and making everything [00:17:00] available to my kids that they want to do, but never forcing them to do anything.
And in fact, if there's anything it's forcing them not to play a certain sport all year round. I think my son was one of maybe two kids on his Sun spring summer travel team that didn't also play in the fall. And I'm just a very deep believer that you shouldn't play baseball 10, 11, certainly not 12 months a year.
It's just not right. It's not healthy. And but does that mean that while he's off playing basketball or soccer or flag football, that other kids are honing their skills in baseball and getting marginally better in baseball? Yeah. that hard to deal with sometimes when they come out and they're maybe a little bit better that next spring.
Yeah, that's hard. But given the trade off, net, I'd rather have that more well-rounded experience for him. For them.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's s super hard to have the like the intestinal fortitude, if that's the [00:18:00] word to to. Stick to what's best in the long term, knowing that it might not be, not have the most short term gratification. It might even come with some short term consequences.
You're here getting cut. Or, yeah. Or things like that. And it, and I guess bringing that back around Ted so with the benefit of now both living this as a dad and also working in youth sports for so long, what are your reflections looking today about where things sit as it relates to the business of youth sports and where that aligns with the best interest of these kids, given how much you see the value in sports and where it might miss the mark.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah, I think there's two sides of it, Jason and I'm sure we could be a whole pod on this question alone. Two sides of it are there never have been resources available kids to improve their craft sports and for parents to [00:19:00] engage in that experience. Than there is today.
It's just, there's, it's become a big industry all of those resources have created more I don't wanna say more opportunity, 'cause net it might not be more opportunity, but certainly more tools for kids with resources to get the very most out of their talent and their ability, which is great and that's positive and there's a lot of positive that comes from that. I think the downside of that is that when sports becomes so when capitalism profit, optimization becomes such a big part of youth sports. There's inevitably gonna be some negatives of that. And listen, I'm sitting here, I'm looking in the mirror, like I, had started a camp company that is a, for that is not a nonprofit, that is a for-profit [00:20:00] It's my, my brother's livelihood. So like I'm all for profit generation game changer was the same way. We were not a nonprofit. We were trying very hard to to generate revenue and maybe there were some negative consequences of that. I think that what in sports a lot of times now, it honestly goes back to, what I just mentioned, which is wh when do these things come into conflict?
And I think the prevalence of club sports and single sport clubs, of which from my experience, of clubs are single sport clubs. Maybe there's some baseball, softball, maybe there's, but for the most part, I assume your son plays in a hockey club. They just do hockey they're not just says, my son's baseball club is a baseball club, and his basketball club is a basketball club.
And that's separate. Those businesses are, for profit businesses, it would make sense that they want 12 months worth of revenue to support themselves, [00:21:00] their business, their families. I have no I have no issue with that, but the result is that families are convinced that you have to play 11 or 12 months of that sport, and that's actually not great for that kid. And as a result, you then at the same time you get this prevalence of club sports, rec sports gets left behind. There's definitely no middle ground. And I'm just observing more and more the kind of barbell effect. Of sports where you've got the very low end rec and you've got the quote, higher end travel or club, and there's really nothing in between.
There's nothing in between $2,500 for club or more. A lot more sometimes or $150 or $175 for rec. And that, those are great for some kids. It's not great for all kids. And I do feel like there's this gap in the middle that's left open. So those are just two examples of some of the negatives. [00:22:00] But I also don't wanna, ignore some of the positives that, that I mentioned at first.
So it's really, there's two sides of that coin. And it's a real, I think it's a real challenge that we're, that, as parents we need to deal with first and foremost is is this good for our kid? But as you, as an entrepreneur, us as entrepreneurs, as we go into this market and understand how capitalists it's become, how do we build a business that, like you said. Both benefits, the net benefits, the kid putting aside the dollars, but also could be a a financially viable and exciting business.
Jason Jacobs: I'm curious when it comes to academics do you have a similar philosophy of parenting? In terms of the kid needs to own their journey and it, it shouldn't be the parents pushing.
Ted Sullivan: I do I think that philosophically that is the, to the extent that the, that kids can do things on their own that they should do things on their own for the obvious reasons, that they start to build those skills and build in [00:23:00] putting aside sports and academics, everything, just like going about their life, they should do as many things on their own as possible.
And that's sometimes tough. You need to get out the door and you wanna fill your kid's water bottle so that you're not late. It's the kid should be filling his water bottle. That's the kid's job to fill his own water bottle. That's just one of a thousand examples we deal with as parents. And yeah, I believe that also for academics. I think listen it is, there are obviously times when parents, especially 'cause academics is sits above all else in terms of the importance in terms of not falling behind, and making sure the kid has academic confidence when they go into school every day.
It is the parent's job to be very aware of how the kid is doing in communication with teachers and following along with how the kid is doing. But to me that is different from doing the kid's work for them. And there's a line that can be crossed just as in sports. I don't wanna say I'm not supportive of my son.
I'll [00:24:00] throw him batting practice whenever he wants. I'm gonna go to my daughter's dance recitals. I'm gonna do everything I. I can for them, but there's a line that you can cross where you're doing it for them and it becomes a joint experience where the sports experience is moving forward as much because the kid thinks the parent wants it to happen, rather be than because the kid actually individually wants it to happen.
Jason Jacobs: Given that you spent the last four years at IMG Academy I feel like in some ways you were in the belly of the beast. I don't know. IMG Academy I more know it by reputation and and I, and I want the truth, but I also understand, you know that you probably wanna be careful not to
Ted Sullivan: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: anything.
That wouldn't reflect well on the brand. But I guess first is IMG Academy, like what kind of kids are there? Is it the best of the best or is it the richest of the richest? And then also for the ones that are [00:25:00] there what are you seeing? Because this is like the tippy top for my perception, right?
In terms of that self-motivation, like versus the parental involvement. Like we've just been pushing on
Ted Sullivan: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: co couple different answers to that question. Academy is a truly remarkable place. It is a one of one just I was in your position where I had heard of it. knew of it. I hadn't been there before, before I took the role in September of 2020 to join the company.
And once I got there, I was blown away. and
Jason Jacobs: Did you move your family to go?
Ted Sullivan: No, I stayed in New York. So I ran a, I was involved in leading a new digital team that we built that was, ended up being a remote team. So there's the campus team and we built out a team to focus on growing the brand beyond the campus in Bradenton, Florida.
And that was where I spent the majority of my time. So I didn't I was down there quite a bit, but I did not move. What I think IMG has done, and this is [00:26:00] part of the reason why it's a one of, one, part of the reason why it's been around for 40 plus years. Part of the reasons why it has a global brand that sits at the very top of this mountain of youth sports is that it has managed to strike the right balance of being a fully dedicated to the development of student athletes. The true holistic development of student athletes and also managing at the same time to build a great business. And so I think IMG Academy in many ways is an example of how it can be done. can have both. And what IMG, what I observed and was a part of, as part of the leadership team there for four years and many others before me that, it, it can be both profit driven and at the end of the day, ultimately driven by the outcomes of the student athletes, [00:27:00] knowing that those outcomes are what fuels the profits.
Because those outcomes lead to the even more respect for that brand, even, which then draws even more talented coaches to work there, which draws even more kids. It's it, it's this flywheel of sorts that really does work. To answer your your question about the talent that's there. And this is what I didn't totally appreciate before I got there, is that, first of all IMG Academy is, really two, there's two, putting aside the digital piece, which we can get into if you're interested, which is, much newer than the, than what's been happening on campus. There's really two core pieces of the business on campus.
You've got the boarding school and camp. And so is now a, rough numbers, 1500 student athletes that go to boarding school there, and they play one of eight, nine, now sports and maybe 10 actually we're adding, [00:28:00] they've been adding sports. And of those boarding school students, you have, quite a range within each sport. Quite a range. At the very top, let's just say roughly the top 10%, 15%, you have the ultra elite athletes in that sport not just the US but from anywhere in the world. And then beyond that, it goes down to, the top 200 kids there, 150 to 200 kids there, then the other and often those kids aren't full payers. They're not full payers of the tuition, and the rest of the kids that are full payers. Again, it's a for-profit business. Yes, they have families that can afford a an expensive, no one's trying to hide what the tuition is there. They afford a relatively high tuition, but they are extremely dedicated student athletes.
They may not be on their way to the pros or D one scholarships or the Olympics, but they're [00:29:00] gonna be college athletes. So if you just look at it, versus the rest of the population, these are extremely dedicated high school student athletes with aspirations of playing in college and they've chosen IMG Academy because it's gonna give them the very best opportunity to improve during those middle school and high school years and give themselves the best opportunity of finding that right academic and athletic and social fit in college the highest and best set of choices at the end of their time there.
Jason Jacobs: Got it. And and the do does the IMG Academy model is that a multi-sport model or does it tend to be single sport at that level?
Ted Sullivan: So for e, so there are mult, there are multiple sports there. Student athletes choose one.
Jason Jacobs: Uhhuh.
Ted Sullivan: And going back, does this contradict what I was saying about kids choosing one? Because it tends to be, one, one I'm really a believer in kids playing multiple sports when they're in [00:30:00] that 13 and under
Jason Jacobs: Huh.
Ted Sullivan: And I know that the world is evolving and I know that as you get into those teenage years, there's gonna be more sports specialization. And so yes, they choose one sport at IMG Academy. I think what IMG has done really well though is that they're very conscious. And they're the best in the world at understanding the teenage student athlete how to make sure that sports specialization doesn't put them in a position of
And you've got the best training staff in the world for student athletes. You've got nutrition, you've got mental performance, you've got flexibility. You've got, injury prevention. You've got all of these things that they're surrounded in a way to to manage the stress on a teenage body that comes from playing a single sport at a very high level for a long time.
Jason Jacobs: And what, and by the way, these are IMG focused questions. We've gotta come back around at some point and talk about game changer. But but [00:31:00] and of course we have to leave time at the end to talk about my stuff as well
Ted Sullivan: I have questions on my list here for you.
Jason Jacobs: But with the IMG stuff. So what motivated them to start a digital offering, and then what was the job of that digital offering?
Was it to package it for the same kinds of people who weren't there? Or was it to open it up to serve more kinds of people?
Ted Sullivan: Both. And I realized I credit Brent Richard, who's the CEO now, and when Brent reached out to me, I think he had a vision that you, that is a pretty magical place and a pretty obviously a global brand, but there was expertise within the walls there that really should be accessible to instead of the 1500 student athletes that come to boarding school every year and the, let's just say eight or 10,000 that come to camp. It's a pretty small number if you think about it, that were engaging with that IMG brand. And his vision, what became our vision was [00:32:00] that, it should be millions of student athletes from around the world that get access to, that brand and that expertise. And so really that was what my job was from the beginning, was to try to figure out how do you leverage the brand? How do you take the expertise that exists within those walls and make it accessible through the internet and also through lower prices and not having to get on an airplane and fly to Bradenton, Florida. How do you make it more accessible to a far greater number of student athletes?
Jason Jacobs: And tell me about that process. You were there for for four years, where did you start? What'd you learn? How'd it go? It, any or all of that would be interesting.
Ted Sullivan: I think I think the. The story isn't over yet. I but I think it has gone very well so far. And really what was done there, and this is, I'm not telling any, trade secrets here. This is all, this is we've talked about this and this is, [00:33:00] these are all public, products available to the to student athletes everywhere now. So we, there's really two things that we did. One was we started a zero to one initiative called IMG Academy Plus and IMG Academy Plus was a, an online platform, platform to take some of the truly most unique, most special areas of expertise at IMG Academy that weren't available in other places.
Or that your average student athlete or even elite student athlete, not at IMG, that they wouldn't have access to. What I mean by that is and I'll just tell you my story, when I got to, to IMG in, in 20, late 2020, and was blown away by everything I saw there on that campus, there was one area of the campus, one area of the student athlete development model there that truly blew my mind. And that was what's [00:34:00] called a PD, athletic and Personal Development. And so in a building there called the Gatorade Performance Center at IMG Academy, there is, roughly a hundred, world class trainers, mental performance coaches, nutrition coaches. It's a whole, it's a third leg of the student athlete development model there with school and sport being, being the other two.
And then you have a PD, which really is what made it unique. And you talk to. tennis player or a golfer, or the shortstop on the baseball team. They have their sport coaches, but they also have a mental performance coach. They have a nutrition coach, they have things that, you know, the, that certainly didn't have when I was at Duke University.
Duke probably has those things now, but certainly it's more like the pro model of surrounding the student athlete with everything they need outside of just their skill development to be the very best they can be. So [00:35:00] I thought that whole world of a PD was fascinating and was truly unique and was needed within for athletes.
Any, that, that don't go there for school. And so we built a platform called IMG Academy Plus that took at first mental performance and nutrition training and coaching and made that accessible to, to student athletes anywhere. So anyway, that was. That was pillar number one. The other was that IMG Academy acquired a business called NCSA. And so NCSA is the largest recruiting platform in the world and is, has helped literally, hun, hundreds of thousands of kids about 30,000 kids a year on their journey, their path to college journey guiding the family and the student athlete through their process with sports specific coaches, recruiting coaches, and a number of digital tools as well. [00:36:00] Really, what to maybe zoom back out what IMG Academy did was. this a strategy of leveraging the brand and the expertise and surrounding athletes. Let's say, an athlete in the Boston area that doesn't go to IMG Academy for Boarding School and probably has team specific skill specific coaches, maybe private coaches.
They play on club, they play in high school. They don't have a nutrition coach, a mental performance coach. They don't have truly expert recruiting guidance. So we're rounding out that set of if you will, to help the student athlete achieve their dreams. And so that's, that, that was what the off campus, initiatives became for IMG Academy and still are today.
Jason Jacobs: And how much progress did you make? And you said it's a journey that's ongoing. What does that point in time snapshot look like today?
Ted Sullivan: Yeah. I've been and outta the business for a few months, so I can't speak to the, literally where it is [00:37:00] today. NCSA was already the leader by far, market share leader in that, in, in that market. So they, NCSA was a really good sized business, one of the biggest and most successful businesses of the last 20 years in youth sports. It's about fueling that business and continuing to support that business. Do what it's always done. The IMG Academy plus business was literally a startup. It was, we created from scratch and, but the benefit of the ING Academy brand, the benefit of some of the reach that NCSA already had built in.
After 20 years of building a big business really helped the IMG Academy is helping the IMG Academy plus business as well. I can't speak to the specifics, but it has absolutely expanded the IMG Academy business from something that in September, 2020 was only on campus. And now you've got a business that has grown drastically over the last several years, not just because of the digital side.
The campus side has grown as well, but the [00:38:00] two together have been a pretty great story.
Jason Jacobs: Nice. I also would love to talk about Game Changer. Should we switch gears first and talk some about some of the stuff I've been thinking about? I'd certainly love to get your thoughts and it's
Ted Sullivan: Weave in the game, game changer, lessons learned, along the way.
Jason Jacobs: I,
Ted Sullivan: but yeah, I'd love to know, I've been reading your blog, Jason, and following your pods. And I'd love to know, you put me on the spot with an up to minute how things are going
Jason Jacobs: Huh.
Ted Sullivan: and I didn't really answer that well, but I'm gonna put you on the spot and say, how are things going with your journey? Figuring out your, your youth sports technology endeavor that you've been sharing graciously with your readers. And, and before I even let you answer, I wanna say your, your have your cake and eat it too. Approach. I just love, and it's inspired me to try to do the same as I think about the next part of my career, which is that, you can prioritize health and family while also being an [00:39:00] entrepreneur.
So amen to that. And I'd love to know how that's going. And also just more specifically how things are going with your. Market research and the endeavor that you're trying to get up off the ground.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. I think first off, as I've written about, but for anyone that. Hasn't read everything I've written about even if it's a repeat for you. I I'm a pretty involved parent at this phase and I relish that when my kids were potted plant age, I was gone. I was just traveling and working all the time.
And it was work. And and I'm in a phase now where it starts with being my fullest self as a parent and then works backwards to what's left for professional pursuits. After factoring in, then I'm gonna, ideally I'm gonna lift weights a few times a week.
I'm gonna run almost every day. And, between that and the sports, there's not a lot left, but there's stuff left. And I'm just as ambitious professionally. I, I love building stuff. I love bringing new things into the world. I love I, I love [00:40:00] learning. I love building products that, that people love, building vibrant communities around them.
There's, the sport of business is fun. And that, it's not like I've burned out on it or something. It's just that like I have other things in my life, right? And so trying to figure that out, right? And then it's gosh, I'm so passionate about sports and fitness and I'm spending so much time in it with the youth sports.
It's talk about a market I know well and talk about a market that I'm passionate about and yeah, it's, it's a huge market, but yeah, it's fragmented and there's seasonality and all the things we've talked about offline. But at the same time it's it seems like somewhere in there's a way to build a business.
And it also seems like there's a lot of ways to build businesses in there that are detrimental to the mission. But actually, if you're thoughtful and intentional about it, and especially doing it in public with the accountability that comes from that, it's I've gotta feel good and proud about what I'm building.
And I'm confident there's that too. I haven't found it, or I haven't done it. But that's the starting point, right? And then it's, yeah, and then it's alright yes, I've been exploring how AI is gonna change how we work and live and how it'll change how startups get [00:41:00] built and funded.
And yes, I've been thinking about how to, how I might build different, but it's alright, I have a frame for how to think about those now. And so I've been going deep into the youth sports and I have a this hypothesis that helping kids and families of committed athletes to better themselves and give them accountability, help them with guidance give them feedback and analysis.
Help them understand how they stack up maybe, loop in their teammates and maybe their coach or trainers and make it fun, right? That if you could do that successfully, then someone to runkeeper actually right? Then you are embedded in their ongoing journey. You have a channel to access them, which by the way is a privilege not a right and you should, bear comes with great responsibility
Ted Sullivan: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: but also gives you a bunch of leverage, right?
As it relates to I. Events or equipment or leagues or coaches or colleges or high schools or whatever, right? And again, with great responsibility, right? But the thought is gosh, if you could just get [00:42:00] embedded and become beloved and trusted right then you have a lot of options for how to monetize.
And you just need to be thoughtful about picking off a way that does so with intentionality and puts the kids and families first, right?
Ted Sullivan: Yep.
Jason Jacobs: yeah, so that's the starting point. And then it's alright, then where do I start within that? And how do I get on the train of doing something little, getting some people around the table and then iterating and evolving with a, with real users, which is like just the starting gun I feel like went off on that in the last week or two.
Ted Sullivan: That's awesome.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: awesome. So I'm curious what you need. You've done some, maybe some vibe coding you read about. Have you had time to dive into that and how's that? How's that going? Have you felt that as a, and I'm, I'm asking because I'm in a position where I'm, I'm not an engineer.
Have you felt that you can make real progress? There are those tools in a place to help you in these like really early innings?
Jason Jacobs: Yeah, I say I'm taking a judo approach. It's like I'm not banking on
At some point I'll need a technical counterpart. There's a lot I can do wrestling with the [00:43:00] tools. Is that a most efficient thing I can do to move the ball forward? I think it depends on the day.
It depends on the task you and and so I think that I'm it's like a parallel approach. It's I am thinking through the content and the target market and what types of drills and what the categories will be, and then how to sort the kids. Is it based on age? Is it based on.
Level of play, is it based on their sport of interest? What are the other categories that you'll serve around them? And then starting to assemble a library of drills for starters, right? And then it's okay, as that library is starting to come together, I don't have one yet, but it's as that library is starting to come together, then it's okay, then how would you serve these?
It's okay like where would it sit and would it be in an app or would it be right? And then it's could you pull out pieces of that to test in the interim just matchmaking, like kids with certain category, categories of athletes and then the drills and could you even do it manually to start right.
Or by text message or by WhatsApp, right? Yeah so I don't have. I feel like I'm nudging everything towards the middle. And I do think there's a lot you can get done with the tools. I don't, I think there'll be [00:44:00] areas where it's like tools plus I need to call on a buddy, get some backend support and I, yeah, it's probably longer term.
I do think there'll be at least a small team around it. But like wrestling with the tools, like I, I wouldn't count it out in terms of surprising me on the upside in terms of how far I can take it.
Ted Sullivan: Cool.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: Very
Jason Jacobs: But it's wrestling, it's ugly. It's not like you have to check.
It's like sitting in, in, if you have to sit in rush hour traffic two hours a day, two hours each way, it's I would never do that. But then you talk to the people that do it and it's I just I develop systems now. I listen to podcasts or audio books, and I have a favorite place to stop along the way.
And I, I got a gym membership at a place near the, on the other end, which means I need to get there earlier where the traffic's not as bad. It's so it's similar with this vibe coding. It's like what rational person would ever put themselves through this? But then it's like you start to realize oh, with underneath all this frustration, like things are actually happening even though it might not feel that way, with every minute or hour or day of my time.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah. I love it and I look forward to following the [00:45:00] journey
Jason Jacobs: thanks. What do you think about that direction, Ted?
Ted Sullivan: I think that. The general area of instruction like tools for helping kids get better is so tantalizing. And really there should be a great platform that, that serves that purpose. And I say it's tantalizing because it's the ultimate next to that mission that we've talked about, which is can you actually help a kid get the very most out of their ability, is in many ways the job of a live coach there aren't enough of them they're the most one of the most precious resources we have in humanity are great teachers and coaches.
Jason Jacobs: there's an accessibility program.
Ted Sullivan: Yes.
Jason Jacobs: be because back to your point before, I think you used the words kids with resources, right? It's the haves and have [00:46:00] nots. I think there, there's a barbell there. As it gets more specialized, it gets more expensive.
And as it gets more expensive, more people that are just great athletes but either don't have the money or don't have parents that can, that have jobs that can accommodate all the logistics and time might get left behind at least for some period of time.
Ted Sullivan: Yep. Yep. And and that's so one of the reasons that, that, that is what makes it so attractive and why I want there to be a killer product in this space. but. Also there are real challenges. I'm not telling you anything you, you don't know, but it may be worth thinking through them just for the sake of the discussion.
I think that instruction, putting aside, training meaning like non skill-based training, call it speed, strength, flexibility, those things can be a little bit more sport agnostic when you go into skill [00:47:00] training. They're not just sport agnostic, they're position agnostic. They're ability agnostic, which is age agnostic, but not exactly the same thing. I'm sorry, they're
I was
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. No. Yeah. The opposite of agnostic. I knew what you meant. Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: excuse me, they're sports specific. They're age specific, their ability specific and they're position specific within the given sport. And that varies more I. In football, obviously teaching a lineman versus a quarterback is two totally different worlds.
Maybe in hockey there's a little bit more overlap. In baseball, there's a little bit more overlap with hitting, but there isn't with fielding, so it depends on the sport as to how position specific it is. But that at the end of the day, that matrix and therefore that market fragmentation, that target market fragmentation is what makes it really hard.
I'd say that's one piece, and I'm curious to how you're thinking about that. And then I'll throw out the other one that I think comes to mind and you can, tell me how you're thinking about it. Not that you've [00:48:00] necessarily figured out how to crack it, but how you're thinking about it. And then the other is the fun, I'll call it the fun factor which is, kids like being outside, playing sports, competing with their friends. And it's, and you want the competing with their friends, but maybe more as as an individual training tool. And I know that you're still sorting through this as possible that I'm not totally following where you are, but just in, in general, do you make some sort of individual self-guided training actually fun for a kid? And maybe related to that is what age group are you focused on? Because probably that has a different answer for a 9-year-old than it does for a 15-year-old.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. And I also I'm still sorting through all that stuff, but let me take a crack. I think on the fragmentation, I think it's twofold. One. Is one, I think it's really important to nail it in one place and almost the more narrow, the better to nail it [00:49:00] and get a beachhead somewhere.
Ted Sullivan: Percent.
Jason Jacobs: yeah, but I also think that as you do that, there will be, and I don't know if it's 20%, 30%, 50%, 80%, but there'll be some percentage of what you do there that will, that you can leverage as you enter other sports or positions or age groups. Et cetera. Now it might need to be separate branded.
It might need to partner with domain expertise to make up for that extra, the delta, which is meaningful and essential. So I don't wanna trivialize it, right? But but I do think that I do think that there's an economies of scale under the hood, if you will.
The other thing is I think that it's really important to not over capitalize and potentially not capitalize at all, right? If you can. Because then, shoot, if you build a 1 million a RR business, right? And your expenses are a hundred grand a year or whatever, right?
Then it's like you're at your, or 300 grand or whatever, right? It's a nice little business, and like for where I am, it doesn't, I'm not trying to build a unicorn. I'm trying to work on something. I'm proud of that. Cer that is fun, that where I'm enjoying the day to day [00:50:00] that can support me and my family.
But it's not, I don't need more than that. Yeah. So that, I think that's another thing. And then in terms of the, who does it serve? I think it's for the more, it's probably kids a little older. It's not, I don't think it's college kids because the college kids have all their Britney Spears handlers, it's those kids coming up that are starting to get to the age of specialization, but aren't in that top 5%, that are going to the academy surrounded by resources.
They're the ones that are probably cobbled together and driving themselves mad and driving their parents mad. And it's what? Like how, why are we doing all this? There's gotta be a better way. Or the ones that aren't doing it but would, but can't because of cost or logistics.
Yeah. Yeah. So I do think it, part of that fun factor is like these are the serious kids. But then the other fun factor is part of the fun factor is that's the nut to crack. You see him out look at my son. He goes to, the shooting instructor and they play posts and they make it a game.
And that kid is dialed in and like he's loving it and his tail's whacking. It's how do you get him to feel that way about shooting at home? It's oh, it can't be done. It's oh, it can't be done. Have you seen him play video games? Have you seen him do fantasy sports?
[00:51:00] Like he's dialed in with his tail wagon at home when it's just him and his computer then, so it's can you transfer what's already happening at home and what's already happening in person with the instructor to at home with the physical thing? He loves the sport.
And so it's I think you can, it's how I don't know. But I bet if I experiment in a bunch of different areas, I can come up with some recipes that work. Maybe I can't, but like that is the thesis of the company. Yeah. Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: I love it. I love it. And and I particularly love the your goal isn't to raise $15 million from a Sandhill Road vc, your goal. I think if that serves you along the way, great. But the fact that isn't your goal and your goal is to, build a great business that can support you and your family, and that's on the financial side, and then see how it goes from there.
I think it's just like a whole different mindset and approach
Jason Jacobs: And introduce my kids to entrepreneurship. Like maybe involve them in the process, back to your [00:52:00] whole like the, like the kid should be involved in the journey. It's like the kid should be in control of their own sports journey. It's it just feels like maybe the stars are aligning here where I not only get their input to inform what will help crack the code as active participants but it also introduces them to the product and company creation process at a far earlier age than they would've other, gotten otherwise gotten access in a category that is like the obvious one that would hold their attention.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: I love it. I love it.
Jason Jacobs: So we'll see. But that's, yeah, that's where I'm at. And I, I haven't declared, I haven't, all I've declared is that it's worthy of experimentation while I assess if I'm gonna plant a flag here. I I am not in a rush to anchor, but I also have no wandering eyes, if that makes sense. This is the only area that I'm focused on, and I feel good about that.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah. Great.
Jason Jacobs: Yeah. Okay. Back to game changer. And I, I know we're we're running up on time, but it'd be great to just get a few minutes on, the game changer story, what you did, what you learned, how it evolve, why [00:53:00] why a big fitness retailer, sports and fitness retailer was interested in you, how it worked on the other side.
Just, almost like a, like the CliffNotes version of the story in the time that we have left.
Ted Sullivan: Cliff Notes version and maybe the starting with the origin story. I had, as I've alluded to earlier, I've, I had already become an entrepreneur in this youth sports space and I felt like I had some decent instincts and I really had spent a lot of time, and I then, actually, my first job out of business school not in sports, but I yearned to stay within sports.
So I started coaching Little League as a volunteer. I didn't have kids, I was just one of the, those like. 20, early thirties, something guy who just was hanging around the field and got together with the downtown little league here where my son actually now plays, which is amazing.
Come full
Jason Jacobs: Eh
Ted Sullivan: and, but I was working in mobile by day,
Jason Jacobs: Wait until he's a volunteer coach someday, by the way,
Ted Sullivan: I
Jason Jacobs: that'll be another full circle moment. Yeah.
Ted Sullivan: I know. [00:54:00] so as this story goes, and I think you've even mentioned in one of your blog posts is like when you can build something for yourself or for your family and you're the actual customer, there's, there can be something special there. And so really that was how Game Changer started. I was coaching, but I really signed up to do that only for the joy of being able to work with the kids. what I didn't realize is that I was signing myself up for a whole bunch of administrative tasks. That came with being a youth coach that I didn't wanna deal with, I really had no interest in dealing with. and so that, and my, growing knowledge of the mobile industry and what was coming with iPhone and everything else. 'cause that iPhone had launched not that long before that, as Cru was really dates this product. And iPad launched like right around when we were launching, I realized that some of the most onerous things within youth baseball and [00:55:00] softball score, keeping stat management reporting to the league office, that those things could be solved by a mobile score keeping product, which is really one side of the game changer business. other side is that, I wasn't a parent at the time when I was doing that volunteering, but I like to tell this story 'cause it's a uniquely New York City story uniquely New York City story is that the fields are so cramped here.
The bleachers were so close to the third base coaches' box where I was standing, I could actually very easily hear after every single play. One of my kids would ground out. We ground out to second base and mom or dad would pick up the phone and call grandma or grandpa or their spouse and say, I was a, ground ball to second base.
And there was this. There was this deep desire to tell other people who weren't at the game, what the young athlete had done. And I wasn't a parent. I think I understood that. [00:56:00] I didn't understand it as deeply as I do now, needless to say. And so really what the origin of the idea was that if I could solve the administrative challenge for the coach with a better tool for capturing the data in real time through Scorekeeping, that then you'd have all the data to be able to solve the problem for the mom that has to make the phone call after every play
Jason Jacobs: Brilliant.
Ted Sullivan: the dad or grandpa or grandma that isn't there at the game.
And that was really the two sides of the Game Changer product, which is just a better tool for capturing in-game stats and activity, and then turning that into a live game experience for parents and fans. And then, it went from there. And in more recent years of added video, which we always believe would be a killer. Feature, it's just the technology had to advance enough to be able to make it viable. Meaning the technology that was out of our hands, things like battery life and network speeds and cameras on mobile phones and things like that. But [00:57:00] once you weave the scoring data with video, now you have a really rich video and you can shop highlights and all that stuff.
And so that's really the game changer business at, its at its core. And it's for the most part, the same way it is
Jason Jacobs: And I'm sensitive that we're running outta time, but what is it that caught the attention at Dick's and then, it seems like things have been have gone surprisingly well post acquisition, certainly in terms of the, in terms of the top line. And like why do you think that is?
Ted Sullivan: Why do I think that is a good question. I think the pro the company's continued game changer itself with Index Sporting has continued to do well. First and foremost was an incredibly talented team that is there that doesn't include me. And I tell them every time I get the chance is like they're working really hard and I get to come on podcasts and somehow get some credit for all the work that they're doing.
So I'm very appreciative to that team. Some of which I know and many of which I don't anymore. But the companies continue to do well 'cause it's of the talented team that is truly [00:58:00] dedicated to having a, an incredible product.
Jason Jacobs: Is it run independently still?
Ted Sullivan: I'd say, run independently. Yeah. I mean it, there is a fully dedicated game changer team, if that's what you mean with Index Sporting Goods.
Obviously there's a tight relationship with other folks and the executive team at Dick's, but it's operated. They have an office here in New York. It, it hasn't been embedded fully into the Pittsburgh headquarters of Dick's Sporting Goods. But yeah, there have been these waves of consolidation.
You, you, as well as anybody and waves of consolidation in youth sports. And in that 2015 into 2016 period was one of those waves when a number of either private equity or bigger co corporations, like Timing Inc. And Comcast and others were looking to get into the youth sports game through acquisition. And, and private equity more on the roll up side of things. And Game Changer was one of the, the leading independent at that time. So there was a lot of [00:59:00] interest from a handful of those companies that were in that consolidation game. And we just felt that Dick's Sporting Goods was the right partner. group of people that run that business. It's really a founder led business and has been for decades. Ed Stack is just a remarkable human and his leadership team. I think that we felt like the culture there, there was more alignment from a culture perspective because it was, companies that just deeply cared about youth athletes and the families that surround those youth athletes and the communities that surround youth sports.
So really it was just a great culture fit from the beginning.
Jason Jacobs: Huh And a la a lot more I, I would've talked about but last question for you, Ted. And that's just, I know that you're in between now and thinking about what's next. I know that you haven't yet landed on what you're gonna do, but how well defined are your criteria for what you'll do next, and where are you in that process?
I.
Ted Sullivan: Yeah, I'd say, compared to you. Maybe like slightly behind, but [01:00:00] not too far behind. So yeah, I left IMG Academy in November. And I've been catching my breath, taking a little break, but also have found myself itching get back into the entrepreneurial startup side of things.
So there are a couple different, I'd call it, areas of opportunity that I'm digging into and looking into to see, and doing some research, talking to some potential customers to see if there's a there haven't, set in stone yet, but but you'll be one of the first to know,
Jason Jacobs: And how are you gonna work in this next phase?
Ted Sullivan: I'm trying to take some of your advice. I'm trying, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to have my cake and eat it too. I, I. There's no question that given the age of my kids and where I am in life and I wanna prioritize family and also no, certainly personal health and and then I do think I agree with you, Jason.
There, there is still room, there is enough time to to focus [01:01:00] yourself to, to build a business during that time, maybe it goes a little bit slower. On a day-to-day basis, I would argue that net over time, it's actually gonna be more effective because you're gonna avoid burnout. You're gonna have a little bit more of a balanced perspective.
And those were things that honestly I learned later in my journey where I, maybe I was pedaled down all the time in the early days and realized it just doesn't, at least for me, some people maybe can do that month after month, year after year. I couldn't. And I realized that as time went by, I got more serious about vacation. When we had kids, I got. Obviously spent when, we're spending more time with kids. And I just think that hopefully, the maturity I've gained over the last several years, I'll be able to continue on that trend line to, to be a little bit more balanced.
Jason Jacobs: This was awesome, Ted. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any parting words for listeners?
Ted Sullivan: You're a pro man. You're, there's maybe early days for you as a podcast host, but you're you [01:02:00] nailed it. You it hit on all the questions, so very much appreciate it.
Jason Jacobs: Looking forward to watching as you head out on your next journey and to keeping in touch. I'm really appreciative that you made the time to come on. I learned a lot and that probably means that listeners will too. So thanks Ted.
Ted Sullivan: Likewise. Thanks for having me. And congrats on your progress so far and I look forward to following along.
Jason Jacobs: Thank you for tuning into The Next Next. If you enjoyed it, you can subscribe from your favorite podcast player in addition to the podcast. Which typically publishes weekly. There's also a weekly newsletter on Substack at the next next.substack.com. That's essentially for weekly accountability of the ground I'm covering, areas I'm tackling next, and where I could use some help as well.
And it's a great area to foster discussion and dialogue around the topics that we cover on the show. Thanks for tuning in. See you next week.